You can remove the flaps and get the holes of your existing inlet welded up or plugged, for the same result. You'll need to keep the (now useless) actuator motor, the ECU needs to know it's there.

Autolusso might have a s/h non-swirl flap manifold or even do an exchange welded one for you.

 

If your cars performance is as bad as you describe and you have ruled out egr, maf and vnt then it is likely that a dislodged swirl flap has already done some damage. Alternatively it sounds like you might be suffering from bodged swirl flap removal attempt that causes a massive loss of manifold pressure. Either way a diagnosis of what needs repairing can't really be made or priced up until the inlet has been removed and inspected (a time consuming and costly investigation). Your existing manifold can be modified as described above and will function perfectly well. It seems unlikely it could be totally un-serviceable but the 156 manifold will fit and has no flaps.

Broken flaps can pass into the cylinders causing all sorts of damage on the way even making it as far as the turbo in some cases! Not a cheap fix I'm afraid. If your garage is indeed a specialist he should have no problem with the diagnosis and repair as it appears to be a common fail for the jtdm.

In summary:
Best case; you may just need a swirl flap delete for all to be good (do the egr delete at the same time) ~£350 with a specialist. Note that someone who has done similar on a bmw will quote less and then end up charging you more as they learn on your car.

Worse case; your engine has ingested 1 or more swirl flaps which have damaged numerous internal engine components ~£1000

Good luck.

 

It sounds like he has the earlier ally inlet that the flaps dont fall off

 

I bought a refurbed manifold from the CDTI Surgery - all metal, swirl flaps removed and holes welded up. About £145 delivered, with a £40 core refund when I sent my old manifold back in to them.

Would have gone straight to Autolusso, but Loz didn't have any in stock at the time so it was just easier to source it myself.

You'll need the EGR blanking and mapping out at the same time though, else you'll be getting some rough running at low revs!

 

This is a de swirl valved ally inlet, its listed for a vauxhall but they are exactly the same
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Astra-Signum-Vectra-Zafira-1-9-Cdti-16v-Z19DTH-Upgraded-Inlet-Manifold-S-C-/201791794224?hash=item2efbba6c30:g:Q3oAAOSw3ydV6W4z

 

Thanks for the replies and the link. The mechanic called me just as I posted the thread, and said he has indeed not looked (though his mother is in hospital, so as excuses go, it's not a bad one). He also says he has a couple of cars that might just be for breaking, in which case he'll be able to take the manifold from one of them. So I'm back to wondering if I should keep waiting or get one myself!

The mechanic tells me that the reason for the drastic loss of power is simply that those valves and flaps are stuck open. When I bought the car in May-ish, it wasn't as powerful as I'd expected, but several times as powerful as it is now. He did originally suggest to me that the valves could simply be sealed shut, but for some reason is now saying it needs a new manifold. I'm not sure why the change of heart - I don't think it's because he wants the money. I'll have to ask.

I think I do have one of the earlier manifolds - all metal. I don't know about the flaps not falling off, though. I thought they could fall off any version.

 

If the flaps were stuck open, you wouldn't have a power problem - mine were stuck open for years. I would imagine its hard for them to be stuck shut too.

You can actually see the position of the flap by finding the tiny ball joint on each swirl. Assuming you don't have the actuator bar still on. You can move them with a screwdriver or something.

You could have a go at seeing if this is the problem by moving flaps 1,2 & 4 to open and sealing over the air leak with some of that putty that sets hard. Not going to help if you've swallowed a flap though.








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Yes, no matter where the flaps are, often with the rod off some are open and some are closed you will have a slight power loss but not to tne extent you are describing, remember that the swirl valves only act on the second port to each cylinder, the first port is always open, unless they are worn to such an extent that they are lifting out and dumping all the turbo pressure but i cant imagine that happening. Are you sure its not just the egr valve stuck open?

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380-Swirl-F...a0d1760383e34e4d957aac0c06561490&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&mehot=ag&sd=122303827788

get a set of these and blank them off

a ALFA Specialist should know that a new manifold is not necessary

 

sorry forgot to mention, if the flap breaks a piece will drop in the head and on to the piston

i have the same problem ordered my plugs 18th jan waiting on delivery will post pics of install

 

Autolusso - Swirl Flap Delete explains the different manifold and swirl valve types, and different consequences.

If it's an all-metal manifold with plastic flaps I think there is some other problem behind any large power loss. MAP, MAF, EGR, boost hose split, vacuum actuator hose split, or turbo vanes sticking, or a combination of several.

EDIT: there are two sizes of those eBay plugs, depending on whether the metal manifold is early or late type - later ones had larger holes.

 

Well now I'm totally confused. The mechanic tells me that because they're stuck open, stuff is coming out into the engine bay that should be being circulated through and that's what is causing the power loss.

I cleaned the EGR when I first got the car, and that increased my power a little. Then when I started telling the mechanic about the power loss, the first thing he did was replace the EGR because he said cleaning isn't always enough. It did nothing at all. The MAP was pretty clogged up and he cleaned that. We've both checked for any holes or splits in pipes. I had him clean the MAF for me (because I couldn't get the damn thing out), and that increased my power a small amount, but it has since gone back to as bad as it was before.

Also, mine is the metal manifold, and yes it does have a bar controlling the valves.

ETA: Worth saying, perhaps, that I really don't think the mechanic is just after my money - he's had plenty of opportunities to get money off me but instead went for telling me how to do things myself, and done things for free, etc.

 

Would a picture help at all if I can get one later?

 

did u do a ecu reset after u cleaned the maf, it cant clear the previous values by itself it will need a reset
you should take your car to a real mechanic that guy has no idea what he is talking about he will replace your whole engine by the time he is done and u will still have the problem
1. do ecu reset manual one 45 min battery diconnect reconect and turn key to mar for 90 sec turn off for 90 sec and start without pushing the diesel pedal idle for 15 min switch off for 10 min start and take for a drive that will make a big diffs
2.get the blanking plugs buying a new manifold will just leave u with the same problem later your car does not need it it is there to make your engine fail

 

I will try that tonight. Thanks

 

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-andamp-gt/201163-ecu-reset-its-a-miracle-cure.html

 

Is the car showing any fault codes?



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Nothing on the dash, and the mechanic has plugged his laptop in - he cleared something minor, but there was nothing else.

 

I'm following this thread with interest but it is getting very messy. Could it be there is a communication break down between yourself and your mechanic? If we are to assume that egr, vnt, maf, map, turbo and fueling have all been eliminated (by a competent mechanic) as a cause of considerable power loss then the next line of enquiry is the internals of the engine.

From the comments posted I'm guessing 1 swirl flap or more have detached and caused damage. But, I make my assumptions based on the fact that all other possibilities have been investigated as swirl flap failure is the worse case senario with regard to cost. It is not the start of the diagnostic process. To avoid the consequences of failure many owners chose to remove their flaps. This doesn't alter the performance of the car and if damage has been done removal of the remaining flaps will not restore performance.

To add to the confusion: flaps are in the inlet manifold but every now and then someone says valves as if they are referring to the same thing. Could it be the mechanic has diagnosed valve damage and loss of compression (pressure) in the cylinders caused by broken valves and this narrative has been lost in translation. Furthermore; I'm struggling to understand how manifold pressure is escaping. Is the inlet manifold cracked somewhere or have holes? Has someone bodged a swirl flap removal?

So basically, I think you have to trust your mechanic on this as he's the only one of us to see the car. Sometimes a little bit of knowledge is more harmful than none!

Please keep us posted as to the outcome of the investigations. You might yet find a small diameter piece of vacuum hose restores performance! Fingers crossed.

 

Is the inlet manifold cracked somewhere or have holes? Has someone bodged a swirl flap removal?

Over time, the swirl flap pivots that sit on top of the manifold lose their seal and air escapes. Hence the oily mess around them.

An easy check is to pull off the actuator bar, seal flaps 1,2 & 4 in the open position with some hardening putty (to stop the air leak)and see how it drives.





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Swirl flaps are normally open over about 2000rpm. They are closed at idle to promote swirl in the combustion chamber to improve the combustion that is deliberately degraded by EGR. So I don't understand your mechanics belief that flaps stuck open will prevent running. Early 16v had no flaps so were effectively always open.

Your swirl flap pivots are clearly worn and leaking, which is the source of the oily carbon mess. Some boost will be lost, but I doubt that is enough to explain the problem. You haven't mentioned the MAP sensor in the inlet manifold. I have a suspicion it's going to be clogged up and look like a piece of coal. Combined with boost loss at the pivots that will play havoc with fuelling. It's one screw to remove, check and clean. But some careful checking with MES should be much more useful than guessing.

 

As previously mentioned by lots of others it is a good suggestion to blank of the swirl flaps anyway.
While the swirl flaps are not difficult to remove, removing the intake is needed to do the job.
This is a little bit more of a job as you need to remove the fuel pump and this involves removal and refitting of the cam belt to get the manifold off.
I'm going to do this on my 159 which is basically the same job.
I have been asking questions and searching info and have come to the conclusion that it is the best course to take.
Due to this regardless of what the mechanic says stuck open stuck shut makes no odds they are not performing any useful function and if they are deteriorated they are likely to break or cause an issue.It will certainly give you runnig issues.
The fact that it is all so filthy means whatever manifold you hve solid or 2 piece it will need thoroughly cleaning whatever you decide.

I hope this helps you make a decision.

 

...
...This is a little bit more of a job as you need to remove the fuel pump and this involves removal and refitting of the cam belt to get the manifold off....

Remarkably (for an Alfa it doesn't. The HP fuel pump pulley has two holes in that allow 2 30mmxM6 bolts to fasten it to corresponding threaded holes in the support bracket behind. The pump can then be removed leaving the pulley in place, with the cambelt still tensioned and no risk of movement. So there's no need to touch the belts at all, just the top cam belt cover needs to come off for access to the pulley.

Getting the all-metal manifold off will still be a bit of a struggle, as the manifold fouls part of the support bracket, and a small area has to be ground, Dremeled or filed off the bracket.

The plastic+metal type of manifold is actually easier because it can be split in situ. There are just 2 allen headed screws down the back that fasten the plastic plenum to the metal stub inlet that contains the swirl flaps. Once the plastic part is removed it's possible to remove all the studs which allows the metal part to be removed without the fouling problem.

It certainly is worth doing. Deleted swirl flaps and blanked EGR fix the Achilles heel of this engine. Well, OK, the other Achilles heel aside from the waterpump.

 

good news have to do mine as soon as they arrive from Ireland was not in the mood to strip everything as the manual said

 

There must be someone you can take the car to who knows what they're doing?

 

Well, the thing is , I don't know anything about the people here - helpful though they are bring and have been in the past - whereas I know my mechanic is an Alfa specialist who worked for Alfa for years, and who the car's previous owner trusted completely. So as far as I'm concerned, I am taking it to someone who knows what he's doing, but people here are telling me he doesn't. I'm not in the best position :s

 

"Remarkably (for an Alfa it doesn't. The HP fuel pump pulley has two holes in that allow 2 30mmxM6 bolts to fasten it to corresponding threaded holes in the support bracket behind. The pump can then be removed leaving the pulley in place, with the cambelt still tensioned and no risk of movement. So there's no need to touch the belts at all, just the top cam belt cover needs to come off for access to the pulley."

So excue my ignorance what is the pulley attached to once the pump is not there.
is there a bearing plate that the pulley is attached to or similar

 

You bolt the fuel pump pulley to the fuel pump support bracket, then you can remove the centre nut that holds the fuel pump pulley onto the fuel pump itself. This keeps the cambelt on the pulley and keeps it tensioned etc while you remove the pump.

 

Thankyou Pud . I was getting very confused. When I looked at it earlier I couldn't fathom out you could remove one without the other. Cheers

 

buddy i have spoken too couple of Makkies and some of them have no idea what a swirl flap is(sounds like your makkie) when u phone the dealer they say replace
That guy is not a Alfa Specialist no Specialist will clean a maf or egr with out a ecu reset
i owned my Gt for 4 years i have done everything myself from major sevice to shocks and wheel bearings, when i bought it it came from a Alfa Dealer a "Alfa Specialist" and i had to fix everything they worked on they even had the cambelt mark wrong it is at 9 oclock and not 6 oclock and that is Arnold Chaz South Africas leading alfa dealer
that is why Alfa has a bad name nothing to do with the car everything to do with SPECIALISTS

ask him if it is cracked if not buy the plugs a new manifold will do the same after a couple of years then u back where u started in his shop spending more money

this is by far the cheapest car u can drive if u have a proper makkie and not a Fitter, all your guy wants to do is fit new parts they are called Fitters and not Mechanic

 

i have to apologize for my rant, i hate people(mechanics) steeling other peoples hard earned cash and calling them selves Alfa Specialists

 

New manifolds are about £150 Have a look on ebay you can buy them ready blanked too.
Look under 1.9 JTD , 1.9 TiD and 1.9 CDTI These are all Pierburg inlets