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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
@ronan then i better not tell you about my laptop, Ryzen 5 5500u (6 core, 12 threads up to 4.0 GHz) with 16gb of 3200 mhz DDR4, in a compact 14 inch chassis. In cinebench it slams my ryzen 2600 desktop in single threaded by 15%, and multicore it does quite decent as well.
You tease.
@Paddy OPlastic Those are decent machines, but 8gb and GT635m is pretty worthless for casual gaming, unless you mean playing facebook games. My previous laptop with a better GPU was pretty much maxed playing world of tanks on minimum settings at 1080p, and those F2P games tend to be pretty well optimised for lower end hardware. Id also argue that unless you are literally only doing web browsing/officer stuff, 8gb is getting a tad small, and wont be getting better in 2025 (to add, its pretty criminal that shops still sell 4gb machines these days, with windows 10, those are pretty much single browser, single tab machines). Also, that CPU, while quite capable, will also lag behind more and more, all the intel security patches dealing with speculative execution leaks arent helping, and by 2025 your basic 5w smartphone chip will run rings around it, while the i7 uses 45-65w
My boy is quite happy playing Roblox and Minecraft on those machines. I'm happy playing old COD and Untitled Goose is just fine. I'm not that interested in gaming these days anyway but playing games in less than 1080p to get the frame rate doesn't bother me.

Most of the Spectre/Meltdown exploits have been patched on third generation Intel processors both with OS and firmware. The only one remaining requires access to the local machine, or a program running on the local machine, and even then it's really difficult to exploit.
To be clear, if you up the memory to 16gb if needed, and dont expect miracles, those machines will indeed last till 2025, but i sort of question the wisdom of the strategy. Those things must have cost a fortune, and im willing to bet that if you were to split the lifespan in two, you would be done for less money in total, and while the first laptop would indeed be slower, the second laptop 6 years down the line will clobber the 6 year old high end machine.
I find 8GB is plenty, especially if you have an SSD to swap to. I use Firefox, famously memory-hungry and I'm quite happy with it, Visual Studio, Eclipse, Outlook and a Postgresql database running in the background. Oh, and WSL.
As for the yoga, ill gladly believe you, but at my last job i NEEDED 32gb of ram to be able to do my job efficiently, we were restricted to devving in a VM, and running the setup with 16gb of total ram meant that every time i needed to use my SQL client i had to kill eclipse, or everything would grind to a halt as the VM hit swap (on a spinning rust drive...), devoting more hardware memory to the VM would mean opening outlook and some office app at the same time would cause the same problem...
Swapping to spinning disk sucks. My main dev machine is a third generation i7 with 16GB running Linux. I've never managed to stress it even while simulating a replicated database migration in two virtual machines. It has SSDs naturally.

I believe you when you say you need that kind of memory and horsepower - especially if you need to develop in VMs. It's rare to need such resources though. I'm finding that the memory requirements have stopped ballooning recently as developers have realised that managing huge amounts of stuff in memory hurts performance. Whodathunkit?
 

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@Paddy OPlastic Yeah, with that kind of gaming use i can imagine it doing OK, im not big on all the new games, but i do play new enough stuff to warrant the RX570 in my desktop.

As for swapping to SSD, off course that is heaps better then spinning disk, but im still the tiniest bit paranoid about putting unneeded writes on my flash memory, especially with modern trends with TLC or even QLC flash. I' d rather not burn out (part of) my SSD by using it as swap.

Interestingly, i currently dev in a remote VM, so my work laptop is an i5 with 8gb, used only for office stuff, and to connect to the 2-core 8gb vm... so far i havent run into trouble on that machine, but i dont have a lot of things open in this job, ill be keeping an eye on things regardless. I find it rather amusing that the machine i now use for work (the VM) is less powerfull then the bottom-spec laptop i bought for my youngest to attend remote school at the start of the year...




EDIT:
Ive been reading up a bit, and apparently the TPM stuff is a bit more insidious then at first glance. I assumed the main use would be bitlocker, but apparently this could also be used in DRM schemes to link digital purchases etc.. to specific machines/hardware configs, so changing out your video card could invalidate the games you purchased.... And apparently TPM also contains NSA backdoors, reason enough for both China and Russia to outlaw TPM usage in their countries, and have their own implementations of the concept.

Another fun detail is that apparently first gen ryzen wont work (not sure yet if this is on upgrade or on fresh install), but this bums me out as well, im not exactly jumping at the bit to get W11 myself, but my dad is using my old laptop, which has a first gen ryzen chip, as is my oldest daughter, and im not entirely sure where my 2600 falls, as it isnt Zen 2, but not Zen 1 either.

Might be going back to linux with the main rig because of this BS
 

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EDIT:
Ive been reading up a bit, and apparently the TPM stuff is a bit more insidious then at first glance. I assumed the main use would be bitlocker, but apparently this could also be used in DRM schemes to link digital purchases etc.. to specific machines/hardware configs, so changing out your video card could invalidate the games you purchased.... And apparently TPM also contains NSA backdoors, reason enough for both China and Russia to outlaw TPM usage in their countries, and have their own implementations of the concept.
...
Might be going back to linux with the main rig because of this BS
Anyone else remember the old "Clipper Chip" efforts years back? I have no idea whether or not there are indeed backdoor efforts in the TPM bits, but would not at all be surprised. Someone has to think of the children, eh? (irony alert)!

Have had my own back and forth with a certain FLA (four letter agency) re an infosec solution ... they can be quite touchy sometimes.

@vitorio - while Linux ain't perfect, I do enjoy it for allowing me to have far more direct control of the whats and hows and behaviours. We are a small minority of the population though - most will simply buy and use as directed. And honestly, for most people, it makes the cube root of sod-all difference.

Time I escaped ye computing realm ... and did something more rewarding!
 

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@Headloq yeah, i much prefer linux, but gaming wise it can be a huge pain in the ass, hence why im currently running windows.

Ive still got linux installed on one of my SSDs on my desktop, but given that the main reason i have that desktop is gaming, im not sure how much i'd even bother with the thing anymore if i switch back to linux exclusively. And while im 100% fine with single use boxes like the xbox, im not sure i feel like mainting a seperate PC for that purpose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
@vitorio
I suspect that /var/log will have as much activity as swap in normal usage. In any case modern SSDs will have intelligent wear-levelling algorithms to spread the usage over the flash substrate. My oldest SSD reports 85% of its lifetime left and I've been using it as a Linux main drive then a Windows main drive since 2013, both operating systems using it for swap and log. It also reports that it is using none of its reserved capacity due to wear. They're a lot cheaper these days and I wouldn't swap to anything else!

For gaming on Linux, Steam Proton is pretty damn good these days. It doesn't do everything but a surprising number of games run just fine.
 

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It seems that Microsoft have been inundated with complaints from owners of fairly recent pcs when they discover that their machines won't support Windows 11. In response Microsoft have removed the checking tool from their site. I suppose their logic is if people can't find out whether their machine is now obsolete or not the complaints will dry up - for now at least.
 
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@vitorio
I suspect that /var/log will have as much activity as swap in normal usage. In any case modern SSDs will have intelligent wear-levelling algorithms to spread the usage over the flash substrate. My oldest SSD reports 85% of its lifetime left and I've been using it as a Linux main drive then a Windows main drive since 2013, both operating systems using it for swap and log. It also reports that it is using none of its reserved capacity due to wear. They're a lot cheaper these days and I wouldn't swap to anything else!

For gaming on Linux, Steam Proton is pretty damn good these days. It doesn't do everything but a surprising number of games run just fine.
True, the wear stuff is mostly paranoia, i know it isnt that well founded (and either way, i dont keep important data on my own PC, so even an SSD dying would be nothing more then an inconvenience).

As for Proton, up to the beginning of the year i was using that, and indeed it does well enough, played through Doom 2016 several times, Doom Eternal worked very well too etc... But at the time, World of Tanks wasnt on steam (it is now, but would require a new account, deleting all my progres), and i didnt feel like ******* around with setting that up around steam play.

Currently i think if i would convert my desktop back to linux, all the more demanding games i run would work easily with steam, and my new laptop handles all the windows exclusives well enough, so there isnt all that much holding me back, just the lack of a reason to go through the effort currently i suppose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Re-installing Windows 10 on one of my machines after it would no longer install updates. Tried all the tricks to no avail. I think it's the first time I've had to completely re-install Windows on one of my own PCs since Windows 95 so I guess that's not bad going.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
So now it seems that those of us with older machines will be able to attempt to install Windows 11 after all. We'll need to download the ISO image and attempt the upgrade that way. Still, there's no guarantee that it will be happy devices requiring older device drivers. I'll take a complete disk image copy before trying it on any of my machines.

 

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I certainly won't be changing over until a goodly amount of other people have been guinea pigs.
 

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My aim is to be shot of the computing domain as my earner by 2025 ... clock ticketh loudly!
I've often wondered what I'd like to do instead of IT. Brief forays into photography and music production but here I am, still.

Yesterday's job was a group policy tweak to make sure nobody upgrades to Windows 11 by accident. We'll start testing it soon. I expect the next job after that will be looking for replacements for some legacy apps we use, but one thing at a time :D
 

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Early adoption often is a mistake, I'll not be offered an "upgrade" though, (hardware - although I still use a Canon scanner that hasn't been supported since Win. '97). So I'm waiting some time before trialling it on my "second" pc.
 

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If your hardware isn't supported then MS will tell you how to install it anyway:


You'll still need TPM 1.2 which unfortunately rules out our nice twin ASUS lappies which have no TPM at all.
Mine have TPM 1.2 modules so I probably could do the switch - the "unsupported and not entitled to updates" gives me concern though. I'll wait until advice as to whether updates can be acquired somehow, becomes available.
 

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I've often wondered what I'd like to do instead of IT. Brief forays into photography and music production but here I am, still.

Yesterday's job was a group policy tweak to make sure nobody upgrades to Windows 11 by accident. We'll start testing it soon. I expect the next job after that will be looking for replacements for some legacy apps we use, but one thing at a time :D
Grudgingly downloaded the 11 ISO ... will set up a VBox VM and occasionally torture myself by playing. Only driver for this is the odd client who does things like SQL Server / SSMS / PowerBI ... and obvs I need to have my own sandpits too. Always feel the need to take a shower after doing the Windows thing.

Instead of IT? I have a short but compelling list. Need to sort out my warchest and then exit stage left from "mainstream IT" and follow passion (and money, naturally!). Mrs Headloq will have kittens but when you're more than a little bored with the field, it's definitely time to change!
 

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Mine have TPM 1.2 modules so I probably could do the switch - the "unsupported and not entitled to updates" gives me concern though. I'll wait until advice as to whether updates can be acquired somehow, becomes available.
I didn't have any complaint when installing into a VM ... perhaps VBox lies to Windows? EIther way, meh ...
 
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