Alfa Romeo Forum banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,222 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So the past few weeks have been educational. Its funny how a little ***** in your car projects armour can change the way you think, or make you look at something from a different perspective.

I am sure its just a glitch. And maybe its good to stop and take account of the situation sometimes.

I was driving home from the girlfriends a couple of weeks ago and my newly fitted uprated clutch slipped. Not a nice feeling as we all are aware of. Especially when you have spent a small fortune replacing it recently. Plane and simple the engine is putting out more torque than the uprated clutch can take. No worries as this can be sorted with a stronger more durable solution. More about that soon.

The point being is that it made me step back and question what i am trying to achieve. Realistically my dream was to hit similar levels of torque and bhp as JTD performance Joel's amazing GTB turbo'd 147. 270+bhp and 500nm of torque with wmi.

Still naturally i have a few reservations on whether my car could take this kind of power all day long, and on track. And would it be better to just hit a happy medium and balance with my project. And more to the point would and could i be content and comfortable at that power level. I am used to faster cars, so to have 270 in my GT would be dream. The chassis, steering and the whole drive experience is simply breathtaking after all the chassis work, and i do really love the car.

Some of my close petrol head friends are suggesting i get a machine engineered and designed to take 300bhp all day long..And that there are some awesome machines out there without spending a small fortune on an Alfa, that effectively will never retain its value, only designed to take 170bhp, and that i don't know for sure how she will react at that elevated power level.

All valid arguments, i suppose..And something definitely to ponder.

This is no way an end of the line thread. Not at all, just an objective honest account of how i am feeling at the moment. Before pressing on again with confidence.

I just need to gain confidence in what i want to achieve again..And i am sure it's healthy to reflect and check your sanity every once in a while...

Damien.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,309 Posts
You only live once and you cant take your money with you :biglaugh: it will be worth it your just in that thinking stage and it will pass soon

Now stick a stage 2 torque fast road clutch in and carry on (About £270-£300 + Fitting)

Merry xmas
 
  • Like
Reactions: ALFADOIT

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,227 Posts
Add NO2 to your diesel and you'll get those power highs if required on track.

A 1.9 diesel turbo will only push so much out of it. Just be happy where it is. If you want to oush further then crack on.

never really understand those that try to get 300hp out of 150hp engine. Just seems a little backwards. Small modifications im all for pushing 20-30% max. But a whole 100% is just nuts.

still its really up to you and what you want. Id be happy with Gta power 40mpg running costs. Great balance of the two.
 
G

·
Damien, apparently you were up at 3am writing that post!

What you've done with your car is amazing, and certainly it has inspired me (and my car) in my own small way.

I think the upper end of what you're talking about (270+ bhp and 500Nm) is possibly a little extreme, bearing in mind you want a daily driver.

I think Scotty has it about right...GTA performance, but with economy. That would still be an amazing result.

You'll have a stunning-looking car with a nice little surprise for any Germanic-types who think they can take the pish.

What's not to like? :wink_org:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,121 Posts
First thing's first, get in on a rolling road and work out where it actually is....

What you've described is a car which chucks out a tonne of power/torque early in the rev range... A big wide linear power/torque curve (as you've currently got!) is always going to feel faster and be funner/easier to drive than a tweaked out dyno-queen... I'd take a reliable 250bhp at all useful engine RPM over a single monsterous 300bhp peak!

Get it Dyno'd and see what's what!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,799 Posts
Its all about balance....

in basic engineering terms a gain in one area will result in an effect or compromise elsewhere. I am convinced that your problem is a clutch /power mismatch. you are only on a stage one clutch and your engine is at least stage 2 tuned. I have been in it, I know!

as mirlock said go with a more robust clutch arrangement and all will be well!

on a more holistic note although the car is capable of the 270 BHP does that mean you have to do it? maybe at this point a small compromise of 20 HP and some really clever mapping to manage the torque levels are the way to go.

remember mate this is your daily driver too..in this respect you and I have much the same outcome in mind, a fun fast car that is also RELIABLE...I will only be aiming for around 220BHP once the Hybrid and FMIC are on as in my mind that is where reliability will begin to become significantly compromised.

mine has proven to be very reliable managing 600+ miles every week without complaint, returning good economy and some laughs when required, the handling is also really nice, not quite as refined as yours but not too far off...currently on about 195BHP and leaves 90% of challengers with a surprised look on their countenances as I disappear of into the distance..not the scoobies and the faster beemers but hell, we knew this when we bought the cars. I prefer that I drive something a little different and in my mind more beautiful than any Beemer,Audi and most Mercs...and definitely prettier than any car made by VW..!

bear in mind our cars are lighter than the equivalent AUDI ,BMW or Merc so 250 BHP puts it up there with all of the usual contenders, added to which it doesn't have dim witted handling, dull interiors and it doesn't feel like a taxi to drive.

no point in comparing it with the Msport versions or S or R Audi's because it isn't one. they are far more expensive to buy and cost more to run than an Alfa GT. my mates RS6 recently required a rad...£1500...and that was from a well priced indie.

also its NOT a sports car ,its a GT, for me it fulfills all of the requirements of a good GT car. comfort,space,power,economy (not usually a feature in a GT car but a welcome addition) and when required a turn of speed.

if I had the garage space to own more than one car at home ,then I would take my Fiat Coupe, tune the beejeezus out of it and have the GT in current state of tune and the Fiat for sh*ts and giggles.

as it is I don't so I need (want:biglaugh:) one car to be all things, so to bring it back around to where the posy started, its about balance.

you CAN push on. clutch needs doing so what the hell do it and then ave a custom map.

I would personally leave it at around 250BHP mark...and enjoy a long trouble free relationship with your Clover, any more and its getting on for twice what the engine was designed to handle.

good luck mate:thumbup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,222 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ha ha..

Some really great replies there guys, much appreciated and valued. Yes balance is important as nearly all of you mentioned. Unlike other popular tunable engines out there, there is no really well trod-on path to follow. Hence why i have to listen to what Joel has done and all the mistakes changes he made to get to that stage.

I would be very happy indeed with around 250bhp and a slug full of well mapped torque across the rev range. I think it would give the car a really magical edge, and something very close to what i am used to. This without compromising the reliability .

So clutch hopefully fitted early Jan and WMI, uprated map sensor and then a trip to a rolling road to see what's what. Before more decisions are made. And see if i can carefully reach my goal in 2016. Exciting times ahead.

The 3am post...due to arriving in Canada last night, i am in the middle of a work trip this week.

Damien.

Happy Christmas guys...:beer:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,134 Posts
Lads, lads, you're approaching this all wrong. :devious:

Damien - I think you're slowly coming to the realisation that your GT isn't ever going to satisfy you and I think it's time to cut your losses and move on to something different. And I'm willing to help you on that path by generously offering you book price, just to get this millstone from around your neck. Obviously I'll have to put the back seats back in and respray it a more interesting colour, but this is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. No thanks necessary - I'm happy to do this for such a respected member of the forum.

:thumbup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,799 Posts
Lads, lads, you're approaching this all wrong. :devious:

Damien - I think you're slowly coming to the realisation that your GT isn't ever going to satisfy you and I think it's time to cut your losses and move on to something different. And I'm willing to help you on that path by generously offering you book price, just to get this millstone from around your neck. Obviously I'll have to put the back seats back in and respray it a more interesting colour, but this is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. No thanks necessary - I'm happy to do this for such a respected member of the forum.

:thumbup:

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.....:thumbup:

I think he may say no...although not as politely as you may expect!

what this does point out is that neither Damien or I will ever get our money back....My cousin wants to buy mine and I told him £5.5k for it, he said yes..its strong for a GT of the age and mileage mine is in the current market....BUT

its had at least 4k spent on it and he loves the car.


what else can he buy for that money that will offer the same balance of drivabiity practicality ,economy and exclusivity..its well and truly fettled and I would be very surprised if anything at all went wrong for a good 50k if its serviced properly.

i'm tempted because 5.5k could buy me something really fun...3.2 or a 3.0 GTV or I could even hang up my speed freak trousers and get a 2.4 brera and be happy with a car that looks gorgeous and cruises the Mway well...also when I'm stuck in traffic I will be able to see the sky....:biglaugh:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,222 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
:thumbup:

Thanks for the smiles Paddy... lol..

There are some amazing machines out there in coupe form with everything fitted ready for track and around the 300bhp mk...Megane RS +trophy, RCZ R, Porsche, Caymen S mk1. To be honest nothing from the audi or VW camp floats my boat. Audi know how to make brilliant power plants but know sod all how to engineer fun and feedback into their chassis or through the steering.

With a GTB turbo you could be on another level performance wise. And i know the chassis could handle it. And the transmission with the right preventative mapping. Joel has proven this.

Who knows if my present hybrid can manage a healthy 240 with WMI that might be enough to give the car an extra dimension. This coming year will be interesting.

Joe. i respect your desires mate. it costs money to achieve and maintain the level we are after with the GT. And you would need to budget a new clutch for your planed next phase..All the best with your decision pal.

Damien.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,799 Posts
:thumbup:

Thanks for the smiles Paddy... lol..

There are some amazing machines out there in coupe form with everything fitted ready for track and around the 300bhp mk...Megane RS +trophy, RCZ R, Porsche, Caymen S mk1. To be honest nothing from the audi or VW camp floats my boat. Audi know how to make brilliant power plants but know sod all how to engineer fun and feedback into their chassis or through the steering.

With a GTB turbo you could be on another level performance wise. And i know the chassis could handle it. And the transmission with the right preventative mapping. Joel has proven this.

Who knows if my present hybrid can manage a healthy 240 with WMI that might be enough to give the car an extra dimension. This coming year will be interesting.

Joe. i respect your desires mate. it costs money to achieve and maintain the level we are after with the GT. And you would need to budget a new clutch for your planed next phase..All the best with your decision pal.

Damien.


yeah, that's my issue, more bloody money...should have researched the options more thoroughly when I did it first time....220 BHP should be fine on the current clutch for a good while...it will be about the re-map really...if its done properly it should be fine for 10k which is a years mileage once I have left work.

as long as its not all in one go it should be fine.

even the FMIC and the hybrid on the current map will give me a bit more...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,227 Posts
Think its knowing when to be happy with your car vs cost.

Majority are okay in the OEM bracket.
Some will be interested in OEM+

Then there are the few that push things to a limit regardless of cost (To a degree).
Those never seem happy. But there needs to come a time when you can be happy.

I learnt that no matter what you push you can never be happy. But as soon as you let that go you'll end up having more fun.

Certain car's should remain standard to ensure that they keep their own character.

Not saying the GT is one of those car's. But can you imagine modifiying a Lancia Integrale Evoluzione II?
I wouldn't I'd leave it as standard as possible.


You can always push boundries but the trick is being happy and spending that money driving the car that makes you happy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,222 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Scotty i think that's one of your finest reply's. I whole heartedly agree. Some of the best cars i have owned are the cars i have done the least to. I know deep down i should have started with something designed and fit for requirements.
I could never have lived with the standard car. And that's no disrespect to happy owners who do and enjoy their cars. The day i picked her up i knew what i wanted to achieve. And it meant throwing most of its std chassis off a cliff. And making her stronger and faster.

Coming from a near 300bhp modified audi coupe, my plan was to achieve a similar power to weight with my GT. Its cost me a fortune to get this slightly above average Italian coupe to where i am today.. Its been a heart over head project. Would i do it again, certainly not. Is the car twice the machine i first bought, yes it is. Is it close to where i want to be and am used to power wise? No not really..

I really need to ask myself some serious questions as to whether what i want to achieve is actually viable. Will i have the reliability at this state of tune. And what will it cost. As quite frankly all said and done, there are much more complete machines on the market that come with everything i need. Power, chassis and brakes all in one package. The GT will depreciate like hell, and i will never get my money back on all her quality modifications. And i am not even convinced there would be a buyer out there for such a machine. That would be prepared to pay over the odds for a modified clover 170. So all this concerns me. If i am brutally honest i need more power than she has at present. Not to say what she has is not impressive as it is. Sadly faster machines are what i am used to. And i am not sure i can put this fact aside.

Damien.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChrissyD

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,227 Posts
Thing is there will always be something faster out there. That's the way it is.

I've had motorbikes most my on the road time.
Bikes from 15hp up to 175hp. So power is not something I've craved to the highest degree.

Do you know the bike I enjoyed the most.
A 125cc NSR and a 350cc Suzuki Goose. Both about 30hp. One with loads of torque though.

Why? Because I could play and rev them and much about. They were cheap and bullet proof (Not car proof it turned out or hedge proof).

I'd say if you are used to more power then you might want to stop here get it dyno'd and keep it for a little while and be happy. Go to a few meets. See a few people. Spend some money on the track.
I know your circumstances change soon and you can do less miles.

But even if you get something with say 350hp. You need to ask yourself. Will you have more fun in a new car than the one you have?


You are right you'll get top end for your car. But you won't get any of the cash back you've ploughed in to it. You never do. It's something everyone who modifies cars / bikes understands.

Its a real shame I've seen a couple post's from you about this and as much as I want you to carry on you do seem like someone that won't ever be happy. So you'll buy another car. Virtually max it out and you'll never be happy. So you'll move onto another project. An so the cycle continues. But you won't be happy.

I've got a car worth 50p. Its a mish mash of Alfa parts. A 147 with a 1.8 twinspark engine from a 156. It's had some tuning parts thrown in it. It's been my experiement of LPG. It's going to be the first car I use Nitrous on.
It's also my daily and its rough around the edges. The wheels are from a GT (17inch star design).
Its had a few chassis modifications. It's rear wiper blade is broken (Still works but looks floopy), the bonnet doesn't fit correctly any more (Original blew away on the motorway).
But for the last 50k its been my companion.

Its had two big failures. It has 140hp and it's not quick.
But It's fun. It stick's to the tarmac like its on rails. It'll never be fast in a straight line. But it does make me smile.
So much so that the V6 156 I had made me a bit sad when I couldn't get it to handle the same.


Point being. Just enjoy your car. Save the pennies. Have fun.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
46,723 Posts
Just keep it as it is for a while, get used to it, and see how you feel in 6 or 12 months. No point being rash and chopping it over a clutch.

For what its worth, 270hp (at 4,500rpm which is around where a 1.9 will deliver peak power) is only 315lbft of torque, which is nothing special. 315lbft won't kill a JTD clutch all that quickly. What kills the clutch is the bottom end delivery & driving style. How the engine delivers the power can be controlled with mapping (VNT %, fuel quantity limiters) and driving style can be learned.

500NM is 375lbft and that is the sort of torque figures that a JTD pull clutch will genuinely struggle with regardless of where in the rev range it is being delivered. My old 10v was peaking at 345lbft and clutches seemed to last about 40-50k miles (for example, CG Motorsport stg1 lasted 50k, with some slight slip for the last 10k of that). A 1.9 due to the nature of its delivery will wear a clutch out quicker for the same amount of lbft in my opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,227 Posts
Are the clutches different in the 2.4 and 1.9?

Or would you mean because the harmonic balance is better in the 5 pot?
Like I said although the 5 pot is a heavy beast I still think they missed a trick adding it to the engine line up!
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top