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Quite so, Paul. If there are no (real) jobs................what are people expected to do?

BTW I wonder how it all worked out for the Romans?
 
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Quite so, Paul. If there are no (real) jobs................what are people expected to do?

BTW I wonder how it all worked out for the Romans?
Not so good by all accounts, didn't they have a big fire or summat when the band was playing?

I agree with the previous comments to the OPs post.
 
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I am not sure such people need to "learn to work".
I know for a fact that if you have no role model as a child - for example a working parent - you don't 'just know' how to work. The discipline of a regular routine, having to show up whether you feel like it or not, doing the dull stuff as well as the bits you like, these are not things that people are just born knowing how to do. You might think this gets taught in school but, again I know for a fact, some people were off on the day of that particular lesson!

It's much harder to learn this stuff on your own as an adult, so we'd be better to find a way of reducing the number of families who treat living on benefits as a lifestyle choice. Not easy to do, but necessary in order that the benefit system can do what it is meant to do - support those who actually need it.
 
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I know for a fact that if you have no role model as a child - for example a working parent - you don't 'just know' how to work. The discipline of a regular routine, having to show up whether you feel like it or not, doing the dull stuff as well as the bits you like, these are not things that people are just born knowing how to do. You might think this gets taught in school but, again I know for a fact, some people were off on the day of that particular lesson!

It's much harder to learn this stuff on your own as an adult, so we'd be better to find a way of reducing the number of families who treat living on benefits as a lifestyle choice. Not easy to do, but necessary in order that the benefit system can do what it is meant to do - support those who actually need it.
Yup! and the best way to do that is to create jobs that pay a decent living wage, so that coming off benefits is an attractive proposition. Minimum wage jobs are no good to anybody, as all it means is that workers wages are being topped up by the benefits system, ergo, the benefits system is subsidising employers who don't want to pay a decent wage.
 
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Yup! and the best way to do that is to create jobs that pay a decent living wage, so that coming off benefits is an attractive proposition. Minimum wage jobs are no good to anybody, as all it means is that workers wages are being topped up by the benefits system, ergo, the benefits system is subsidising employers who don't want to pay a decent wage.
Sorry but that is missing my point entirely. All of the jobs in the world are no good to someone who dosen't 'get' what working means. Even if they can persuade someone to take them on they are unlikely to keep the job.
 
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Sorry but that is missing my point entirely. All of the jobs in the world are no good to someone who dosen't 'get' what working means. Even if they can persuade someone to take them on they are unlikely to keep the job.
Those that don't "get it" as you put it, usually fall into three camps......

1. They are thoroughly disillusioned by the temporary, part time and minimum wage offerings that are constantly being shoved at them, purely as a political expediency to make the unemployment figures seem smaller than they really are. If they take one of these "jobs" they have no employment rights, no holiday entitlement, no sick pay, and no job security and on top of that, they still end up claiming benefits, to top up the crap wages that so many employers are so very keen to get away with paying. Why should we as a society subsidise mean employers?

2. The bone idle tiny minority, who do not want to work. They have always been with us, and there isn't much we as a society can do about it, short of putting them on a chain gang under armed guard.

3. The unemployable, who are on benefits of one sort or another due to long term illness, either physical or mental.

Everybody with even half a brain "gets" what working means, it's just that for some people working means different things, to what you seem to think it means.

For some it is simply nothing less than soul destroying slave labour, for some it is fulfilling work that they can derive satisfaction from and have a sense of pride about. If we as a society want people to want to go to work, we need to understand the value of providing jobs that have more of the latter and less of the former, we need to get our manufacturing industries back up and running, just like China and India are doing and give working people jobs that they can have a pride in.

Look where basing our economy on the financial services sector got us, the bankers and weak politicians shafted us all good and proper, because we had nothing tangible to fall back such as a strong manufacturing base.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Those that don't "get it" as you put it, usually fall into three camps......

1. They are thoroughly disillusioned by the temporary, part time and minimum wage offerings that are constantly being shoved at them, purely as a political expediency to make the unemployment figures seem smaller than they really are. If they take one of these "jobs" they have no employment rights, no holiday entitlement, no sick pay, and no job security and on top of that, they still end up claiming benefits, to top up the crap wages that so many employers are so very keen to get away with paying. Why should we as a society subsidise mean employers?

2. The bone idle tiny minority, who do not want to work. They have always been with us, and there isn't much we as a society can do about it, short of putting them on a chain gang under armed guard.

3. The unemployable, who are on benefits of one sort or another due to long term illness, either physical or mental.

Everybody with even half a brain "gets" what working means, it's just that for some people working means different things, to what you seem to think it means.

For some it is simply nothing less than soul destroying slave labour, for some it is fulfilling work that they can derive satisfaction from and have a sense of pride about. If we as a society want people to want to go to work, we need to understand the value of providing jobs that have more of the latter and less of the former, we need to get our manufacturing industries back up and running, just like China and India are doing and give working people jobs that they can have a pride in.

Look where basing our economy on the financial services sector got us, the bankers and weak politicians shafted us all good and proper, because we had nothing tangible to fall back such as a strong manufacturing base.
Sorry but you couldn't have chosen a worse example.
Rates of pay - Slaves
Workers rights - None
Health and Safety - Appalling history of mass fatality in the workplace.

I agree that our manufacturing infrastructure is in need of a major overhaul but not at the cost of human lives, rights and conditions.
 
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Everybody with even half a brain "gets" what working means, it's just that for some people working means different things, to what you seem to think it means.
Well I didn't get it, not for a long time. But at least that confirms I don't have the half brain it takes to be a member here.

Not news, but thanks for confirming. :thumbs:
 
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Sorry but you couldn't have chosen a worse example.
Rates of pay - Slaves
Workers rights - None
Health and Safety - Appalling history of mass fatality in the workplace.

I agree that our manufacturing infrastructure is in need of a major overhaul but not at the cost of human lives, rights and conditions.
I wasn't saying we should follow the way they do things, we should do things like WE used to. Thatcher and her cronies all but singlehandedly destroyed Britain's manufacturing industries, that needs to set to rights.
 

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sounds like they are just not suited to that specific job, anyone who comes out of college or school will get a bit of a shock at the working hours, it's just a case of re-adjusting.

What I am worried about is if companies are pushing / working us harder for less money due to more people coming in from outside the UK where there is a perception they are use to more hard labor, I think a school leaver or the unemployed would expect more maybe
 

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I know for a fact that if you have no role model as a child - for example a working parent - you don't 'just know' how to work. The discipline of a regular routine, having to show up whether you feel like it or not, doing the dull stuff as well as the bits you like, these are not things that people are just born knowing how to do. You might think this gets taught in school but, again I know for a fact, some people were off on the day of that particular lesson!

It's much harder to learn this stuff on your own as an adult, so we'd be better to find a way of reducing the number of families who treat living on benefits as a lifestyle choice. Not easy to do, but necessary in order that the benefit system can do what it is meant to do - support those who actually need it.
Despite subsequent posts I think we should actually pay due regard to scsc's comment above.

I hold by my original point in that we should, as a society, have valid jobs - but we don't. It is therefore no wonder that people react in the way scsc describes.

As a society we need , as scsc says, to find a way to dissuade people from choosing benefits as a lifestyle choice. Easily said and I don't have an immediate answer - anyone?
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I wasn't saying we should follow the way they do things, we should do things like WE used to. Thatcher and her cronies all but singlehandedly destroyed Britain's manufacturing industries, that needs to set to rights.
Like we used do things
Forth Bridge - 63 dead
Titanic - 5 recorded true figure believed to be closer to 10
God knows how many women and children died in the textile mills in Victorian England.

so harking back to our industrial past is hardly any commendation.

More recent history 615 people died in work in 1974
2011 down to 113.

In perspective 1 single incident in Bangladesh cost more lives than the total for the UK in 1974
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-22476774

Bhopal 1984 official 3,800 true figure believed to be closer to 15,00

Mass manufacturing relies on a cheap and disposable labour force, not innovation, training, investment and looking after the workforce, your perception of why the Chinese and Indian manufacturing sectors are growing IMO is slightly off kilter.

I'm fortunate enough to work in an industry that is investing for the future and like an earlier poster said we are having real trouble recruiting quality applicants for our apprenticeships.

The qualifications are there the interviews get passed with flying colours but some of the candidates attendance and work ethic is quite frankly woeful, so yes the need to be taught to work is in my experience still lacking in todays society.
 
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I don't disagree that we need jobs in our economy.

But the original question Paul asked was do we need to learn to work.

In my opinion yes, we do. At least some of us do. And if you're not one of those, then count yourself lucky. But don't patronise those who have a less fortunate background to yours.
 

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1) we need proper jobs
2) we need strategies to deal fairly with high unemployment
3) we need to educate and tackle (fairly) the longitudinal effects (and victims) of worklessness
4) we need (and have a right to) safe work

you're all right
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I don't disagree that we need jobs in our economy.

But the original question Paul asked was do we need to learn to work.

In my opinion yes, we do. At least some of us do. And if you're not one of those, then count yourself lucky. But don't patronise those who have a less fortunate background to yours.
Fortunate background, I grew up on a council estate in Liverpool in the 1960's by the time I left technical college the 80's recession was in full swing.

I managed to get a job in manufacturing and would have given my eye teeth to get an apprenticeship, instead I worked my balls off and carried on my studies and have never been out of work fortunately.

Would I have done that if my parents had been living off benefits and that was what I'd been brought up to see as the norm, who knows.

Like I've said in previous posts many of todays young people starting off in manufacturing today think that instant promotion and a good salary are a given just because they are employed.
 
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