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I've read that the water pump failing on the JTD engine (Alfa GT)causes the cam belt to come off, with the usual huge engine damage. How common a problem is this on the GT? Also, is this exactly the same setup that's in vauxhall/Saab/Fiat cars? Surely this would be big news if it was a common failure?
 

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Yes it would.

Water pumps are normally pretty long-life items .. let's face it, they're just an impeller running inside a bearing.. the only way it can fail (as far as cam-belt risk is concerned) is if the spindle seizes in the bearing or the bearing collapses... both very unlikely.

I dunno what the cam-belt change interval is on the JTD donkey but if you think there's a risk that the pump is fragile, it would be worth swapping it every 2nd or 3rd cam-belt change.

Different engines for sure.. but my v6 water pump racked up 191,000 miles and I only changed it because it "must" have been wearing out.. but condition once off was actually fine (some looseness in the bearings but still sound). It would have run to 216k (the third scheduled cam-belt change) easy.

Ralf S.
 
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Mine went on the 147 JTD at 62,000 miles, exactly the same engines they put in the GT, it's the same engine type (GM developed common rail diesel) as the Vauxhalls, Saabs and Fiats but whether the water pumps are the same I don't know.

On mine, the shaft didn't seize, the bearings developed play and the belt ran out of line - witness mark round the water pump roller over to one side, eventually wore the belt and it snapped.

On the good side, the cams aren't directly above the valves, like the petrols and there are sacrificial rockers to protect the pistons and valves. Also, Alfa are on a customer services drive and if the belt snaps before the 72,000 mile service when it's due they'll contribute 80% if it gets repaired at a main dealer or 50% towards an indie garage. In all fairness to Alfa they paid up with very little hassle and I wasn't expecting a penny off them as it was out of warranty, it was the guys and gals on here that convinced me to write off to them.

Lesson learnt, I'm getting the belt and water pump changed at 60,000 intervals instead of the recommended 72 now, and to be honest, unless you go for a chain driven engine a cambelt could snap on any car. Alfa diesels are no more prone to it than Renaults, VWs, anything - they're all pretty standard rubber belts.
 
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The saving grace with cam belt driven water pumps is that they usually leak coolant before the bearing fails.Problem is, the leak is often not evident as a drip on the floor because it only occurs when the engine is running then it evaporates on the hot engine. The lesson is not to ignore slight coolant loss but to get it checked out to find out where its going.
The pumps often last longer because the cam belt should always be correctly tensioned where as pumps driven by manually adjusted auxiliary belts are often too tight.
 
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Around the £500 mark for the belt change service at an indie on £40-50 an hour. Suspecting it will be a LOT more at a main dealer because their labour rates are getting on for £100 an hour and it's quite a long job.

If you let the belt snap it will be £1000 minimum to repair depending on what's been eaten inside the engine.

At the end of my snappage saga, Alfa paid for half the repairs and I ended up having to fork out roughly what the service would have cost me next year anyway. Not really out of pocket and a set of new, quiet, smooth rockers and tappets to show for it.
 

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Water pumps are normally pretty long-life items .. let's face it, they're just an impeller running inside a bearing.. the only way it can fail (as far as cam-belt risk is concerned) is if the spindle seizes in the bearing or the bearing collapses... both very unlikely.
It is actually becoming quite common on the 16v JTD.
The pump bearing seizes solid and the belt fails, usually when around 4-years old. Only applies to the 16v & 20v JTD so given the age of the cars concerned it is only just starting to appear as a big issue.


Mine went on the 147 JTD at 62,000 miles, exactly the same engines they put in the GT, it's the same engine type (GM developed common rail diesel) as the Vauxhalls, Saabs and Fiats
It is not a "GM developed common rail diesel"... :tut:
It is a Fiat engine that is shared with Alfa.
GM (Vauxhall & Saab) also buy the Fiat JTD engines.
 
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It is actually becoming quite common on the 16v JTD.
The pump bearing seizes solid and the belt fails, usually when around 4-years old.......
David , are there warning signs before it siezes or is it just sudden failure?
 
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David , are there warning signs before it siezes or is it just sudden failure?
No warning signs when mine went, no loss of fluid, no banging and clattering, engine warning light came on, it cruised to a stop and refused to start. But then the pump didn't seize, the bearings developed play and the belt ran out of line rather than the bearings seizing and jamming solid, it would rotate fine but with a bit of a knock. It didn't squeak or squeal leading up to the failure, everything was running smooth as always up until the split-second it snapped.


It is not a "GM developed common rail diesel"... :tut:
It is a Fiat engine that is shared with Alfa.
GM (Vauxhall & Saab) also buy the Fiat JTD engines.
GM ... Fiat ... Alfa, all look same, I thought they all pee into the same pot, tried to merge, didn't, shared engines around and they're all pretty much the same power plant putting out different horsepowers.
 

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It is not a "GM developed common rail diesel"... :tut:
It is a Fiat engine that is shared with Alfa.
GM (Vauxhall & Saab) also buy the Fiat JTD engines.
GM ... Fiat ... Alfa, all look same, I thought they all pee into the same pot, tried to merge, didn't, shared engines around and they're all pretty much the same power plant putting out different horsepowers.
It is a Fiat engine.
The whole GM/Fiat deal is very confusing and has been covered on here many times before.
Basically GM purchased some Fiat shares with an option on buying the whole company. It looked like GM didn't realise at first the Fiat could actually force GM into buying all of Fiat at any time, when GM realised that they wanted out of the deal. The settlement involved GM giving Fiat a shed load more money and GM being allowed to use the 1.9JTD engines.
 

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Is the drive on the water pump toothed?

If it was smooth there would be some noise and a small amount of warning before the belt snapped.

I know the TS engine has a smooth waterpump that runs on the back of the cambelt.

If I was to own a Diesel I would chenge the belt, tensioners and waterpump every 40,000 miles. The water pump is only £32+ vat from shop4parts..
 
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The pump roller runs on the smooth side of the belt. Not a hint of a squeak in the days before it went, I'd have noticed and got it looked at (or thought 'I should really get that looked at') if it was starting to squeal like a slipping belt.

The parts are all pretty cheap for a belt change, it's the hours of labour that adds the cost up. It's a £35 part but how many hours on £50 an hour to change it?
 

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Nice long-life petrol engine is what you guys wants.. not these fussy little oil burners! :D


Ralf S.
 
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You mean those longlife petrol engines that need their belts changed at half the interval of a diesel engine? :lol:
 

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You mean those longlife petrol engines that need their belts changed at half the interval of a diesel engine? :lol:
Yes but do they...
The cambelts don't need changing on the diesels, but the water pump does. And to get it off you have to change the cambelt anyway.

I would be wary of leaving the waterpump in a Diesel longer than 40K miles. The V6 cambelt interval is longer than that, and the TS is only slightly shorter. :rolleyes:
 
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The water pump doesn't have to be done on any service on any engine, I'd get mine done when the cambelt is done just because it's a £35 part and when it's all in bits they might as well.

But I won't be leaving the belt change to the recommended 72k again, going to get it done at 60 next time. Still a lot longer than the TS engines.
 
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It must be the salt in England that kills the pumps. As we have never had a pump failure ever. And the Main Dealer we take the cars too say the same it's very rare they go.
 

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It must be the salt in England that kills the pumps. As we have never had a pump failure ever. And the Main Dealer we take the cars too say the same it's very rare they go.
Remember that the problem is only with the 16V & 20V JTD pumps. The 8V & 10V JTD are fine.
Most 16V & 20V cars are only just starting to get to the age where the problem starts.

Also, it isn't unusual for a Main Dealer to think that there isn't a problem...!
 

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Is it a time or a mileage thing? The GFs new Bravo which has the same engine now has a belt change interval of 90k miles. She will have done nearly 30k when it reaches a year old in October :wow:
 
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