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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anybody experienced similiar problems?

On my Q4-'92 engine cylinder no.2 is not working! The plug is giving sparks, as strong as at the other three cylinders. I also measured compression of all 4 cylinders. All cylinders have very similiar compression values at about 11 bar.

So my next thought is that the injector no.2 isn't delivering fuel. And now my questions:

- Is there a light on the dashboard that indicates malfunction of the injectors? If so, does it differentiate between a defective injector and one that is just blocked by some dirt?
- Is there a way to test the injector whithout removing it?!!!
- Could it be valuable to use some injector cleaner? Are there different kinds of cleaners (I know only the one you add to the fuel in the tank)? Are they effective? Any experiences?
- Assuming the problem won't be resolved by any cleaner, HOW DO I REMOVE THE INJECTOR ON THAt ENGINE? Has anybody experience with this on a Q4 engine? Having had a look at the intake manifold, I WORRY THAT I HAVE TO TAKE DOWN THE WHOLE CYLINDER HEAD (accessing the injectors looks very, very painful)!!! Does one of you have a manual or any other description of removing the injectors on the Q4 engine (The manuals I have describe this work only for the TS and the V6 engines)?
- WHICH OTHER CAUSES COULD THERE BE FOR A NON-FIRING CYLINDER?

Y'all easily understand...I'm just too frightened to take everything down just to test a shabby injector.
Please help with any experiences on malfunction of injectors or non-firing cylinders.
THANX, i'll be back!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let's race!
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Spike:
Check injector resistance value, mesuaring at round connector located at right side of power steering reservoir.
You have to check pins 2 and 5, and value must be 15ohms aprox.

Regards

Sebastian
[email protected]
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
easy way to test an injector,just unplug the socket on the injector and run two wires from the battery and just touch the wires on the two pins if it clicks it ok if not its duff.its perfectly safe as they run on 12v anyway(dont hold the wires on for long,just enough to hear it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for those really helpful advises.

Sebastian, I'm gonna check the resistance value of the one injector tonight.

I also would like to check the suspected injector as Jimmybob described or remove the injectors and interchange them to observe what's happening, but...I would if I could!

My only problem is to remove the injectors or just to reach their connectors. On the Q4 engine the injectors are hardly accessible. You can't even really see them. They're wrapped up by the intake system which itself seems to be removable only by removing it with the cylinder head. Somebody's got an idea for the "easiest" way to get out the fuel rail and the injectors? Anybody replaced injectors on a Q4 so far?
 

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Injector removing !!! from Q4 ..this is very bad news ..like nightmare ...
Yes ,Im removed my Q4 injectors .I know how is difficult.
You check firstly resistance injectors (sebastian say ) ,than injectors cable test from ECU (short circuit test ),and latest check maybe you must kick number 2 injector uses someting hard tool ,if its very dirty maybe opened (maybe) .
But removing really diffucult ,if you start morning maybe finish it one day later .

***
1-remove exthaust connecting from turbo.
2-remove fuel pipeline
3-remove butterfly air input (all hoses)
4-remove all cable and hoses from intake manifold
5-remove water connecting from intake
6-remove battery
7-remove engine connecting buy ,this is near the power steering oil .
8-now lift your car and loose two engine braket screw ,but this is very dangerous dont remove screw only loose half ,we make it for open the intake manifold back .
9-Now engine come or move automaticly front side and some open intake manifold back .if do not make this dont remove intake manifold .
10-now you ready starting remove intake manifold screw !! this is very difficult.if your hands big ,find or help your friends

**normaly you must remove all engine from car for this operation . Good luck

MaxiBoost
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
MaxiBoost, Thanx for your detailed description of unmouting the injectors. I nearly died reading it! That's what I feared!
But please tell me why you had to change the injectors on your engine! How was your engine behaving before you replaced them?
 

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upss,this very difficult for my english .

ok Im change my injectors for performing problems and check-clean also .
3 mounts ago ,Im remove enjectors and connect a lucas test-clean machine and I see very very much **** when test make .One enjector 80 cc pressure fuel when test ,enjector bottle is 100cc .
Test run I think 15 second .

I thinking my old enjectors is dead .And my car burn 17lt-20lt /100km !!

Than ,I found 4 used Q4 injectors and test it but I see half than others like 50cc ,
I was happy ,and I say bosch service guy ,,could you clean this new enjectors ? .
He cleaned it and recheck I see 80cc again !!!
>And now ,what is change ? IT IS NOTHING.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
MaxiBoost: I understand that you had too much fuel consumption and wanted to test the injectors if they are wrong. If it is not the injector, maybe your engine is running to rich (to much fuel). Have a look at the spark-plugs if they are very black (too much fuel). My engine consumes about 14lt/100km, but I never measured how much it consumes driving only in town. Maybe it reaches 17-20lt as yours.

Sebastian: Cool advise!!! I checked the resistance between female pin 2 and pin 5 as you pointed out. I measured 14.2 ohm (and the value for example between pin3 and pin5 was also 14.2 ohm). From the electrical point of view the injector(s) seem to be ok!? But what did I measure? Does it mean that my injector no.2 is connected and that it is not broken inside? It could still be blocked by some mess, what do you mean? Do you have some info stuff that could be interesting for my problem?
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
i would suspect an air leak first check all the vac pipes for splits also look round the four rubber connectors that are between the upper and lower section of the manifold..i think that the upper part of the manifold can be taken off without removing the whole manifold you can then get to the injectors to test them.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Spike:
Mesuaring resistance value between pins 2-5 you only are checking injector #2...
If you want to check all of them this is the pin out:

(on injector connector)

Injector# / Pins
1 / 1-5
2 / 2-5
3 / 3-6
4 / 4-6
-----------------------------------------------
I would check wires between ecu connector and injectors conector, or mesuaring injector resistance values from ecu connector.

(on ecu connector:)

Injector# / pins
1 / 20-35
2 / 20-32
3 / 20-33
4 / 20-18

If all values seems to be ok, sounds to be a blocked injector....

Good luck!

Sebastian
[email protected]
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you guys!!!
Lots of very good advises. I'm gonna spent the rest of the week and on weekend to check all those things. First I'm gonna put plates on quadrifoglio because actually it's not in circulation and gonna have a long trip with lots of injector cleaner in the reservoir. Jimybob, right, there should be a way just to lift the upper intake manifold even if it's gonna be annoying (those clips seem to fit so good after all this time, and putting them back down there!!!).
 

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Sorry to disturb the discussion, but MaxiBoost, can you tell us what kind of injectors it is that is fitted into the Q4?

Is it IW 058 as in the integrales? You know, it's hard to read the text when they are fitted to the intake manifold ...

Regards

/A
 

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Hi Andreas ,
Yes Our cars use IW058 enjectors.

*Fiat coupe turbo -4cyl use IW158 ,but I dont know how is difference !
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi.. My dad's Q4 had the same problem,and there was sparks on all the plugs too. Then i replaced
all the spark plugs and leads. Problem solved...
 

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There is an idea Spike!
Change some spark plugs around and see if the failed cylinder moves. Its a quick and easy check (or are Q4 spark plugs buried in the engine too!)
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Time for an update:

I ran the car for some hundreds kms in the last days (been to WRC championship in Germany last weekend. None of those cars tougher than ours' :p !! And Tina still in good shape, even in a Skoda eek! !). I gave a total of 3 bottles of injector cleaner (wynn's and liquy moli) along with approx. 90 liters of fuel. Unfortunately it didn't resolve my problem: the engine's still running on three cylinders, but...my impression is that although still running on three cylinders, the engine is running a lot better than before!!!

SO IT COULD BE A VALUABLE THING to use injector cleaner if you're experiencing performance problems, or even to clean up injectors that are already messy and could block one time!!! Maybe it could solve the same problems that often lead that damned lambda probe to be suspected?????!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let us know, if somebody experienced/experiences some wonderful results with injector cleaner in general!

After that:
- checked resistance value of all 4 injectors (at round connector located at right side of power steering reservoir): all ok (gracias Sebastian!)
- checked "clicking" of injectors (thanx JB!!) at same round connector running to wires from battery (same thing as doing it directly at the injector pins. saved a lot of time. thanx again Sebastian!!). The result: all 4 injectors are clicking, but the one from my non-firing cylinder less strong!!! Unfortunately i don't know how the suspected injector clicked before using the cleaner.

Gonna do some other diagnostics on the injectors now. Peter & Chris: I think i already tested that, i even bought a new set of plugs and leads. But for sure, i will test it again!!!

Last question: What manufacturer are the injectors on a 1992-Q4? I guess their type no. is IW 058 as MaxiBosst pointed out before!?
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
they should be bosch i think...this isnt sounding too good you could have an air leak or maybe something worse..have you done a compression test yet.????this will tell you if you have 'burnt valve'.
 

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No, no, no The injector is made by Magneti Marelli and it is a racing injector flowing 384 cm³/min @ 3 bar fuel pressure (2.5 bar in Q4). The Magneti Marelli part number is 83800534000 and you reach M M Competizione at phone number +39 2 97227478

/A
 
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