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Discussion Starter #1
So we all know the negative camber wears the inside edges. So the question here is - do tyre constructions make a difference to the inside edge wear?

I have a ti q4 which has -1.5 degrees camber. Awesome setup- downside is inside edge wear.

Now I was reading on the Michelin PS4S (not the PS4) which has a hybrid tread - different compound on the inner and outer edges versus the center.

So would tyres like this last longer or shorter on a car with negative camber like our 159 ti's?

I am due for new tyres and currently have the Michelin PS4 - awesome tyres. But am thinking of the Goodyears F1 Asymmetrical 5.

Anyone had any experience with these and has anyone ever found that a certain tyre construction wears better on the inside edge (alignment, camber settings etc remaining constant).

I'm curious.

PS: why do (it seems Brits) say "tracking" when talking about wheel "alignment"? I've never heard anyone refer to wheel alignment as "tracking". Again just curious.
 

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This will be a quick decision, since the Goodyear is not available in the size needed for the Ti wheels (235/40 R19 96Y).
 

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If that's OK with your regulations authority why not, over here we are not allowed to. :(

Well… I have the PS4 in 235/40 R19 96Y and I also think it is an awesome tyre. When I put them on, I did an alignment (or whatever), asking the shop to optimize for tyre wear (which means toe and camber). I will see in a few years if they have done it right though. I only do around 4000 miles per year on summer tyres.
 

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So we all know the negative camber wears the inside edges. So the question here is - do tyre constructions make a difference to the inside edge wear?

I
On the 159 its the excessive toe out that kills the tyre inners edges....not the camber...which is at a pretty standard amount similar cars. Setting the toes to zero or just a touch of toe out will tend to sort the edge wear out.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I didnt want to start a discussion on alignment settings. I already have toe-in at zero and it 100% is the negative camber that wears the inside edges, yes toe-in adds more wear to the edges but it is the negative camber because the top of the wheels on the axle are closer together than the bottom - that's what negative camber is.

Anyway back to my question- does tyre construction make a difference to inner tyre wear, everything else staying the same?

So I have finished a set of PS4's and they were an awesome tyre but the inner edge is gone. The PS4S use the hybrid technology I mentioned but I dont like that tyre for the road. Just wanting to know if this technology would help here, and if anyone has finished a set of F1 AS 5's
 

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Not sure how much luck you'll have as it's not the recommended tyre size for the Ti wheels - not to say there won't be someone out there who has fitted them - I looked for a set of F1s as we have them on a Jag, and they're a great tire, (I've generally been a Goodyear guy) and I've had F1s on other cars and loved them - I opted for the MPS4 and haven't looked back - I also have zero toe and poly bushes, my tires are about 11 months old and about 10k miles and no noticeable uneven wear.

The previous tyres on the car when I bought it were the dreaded Accelera PH1 and are pretty tough plastic-like tyres, they wore pretty badly on the inner edges over the course of a year.

Not sure why us Brits call it tracking, perhaps it's setting cars up for track use?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Not sure how much luck you'll have as it's not the recommended tyre size for the Ti wheels - not to say there won't be someone out there who has fitted them - I looked for a set of F1s as we have them on a Jag, and they're a great tire, (I've generally been a Goodyear guy) and I've had F1s on other cars and loved them - I opted for the MPS4 and haven't looked back - I also have zero toe and poly bushes, my tires are about 11 months old and about 10k miles and no noticeable uneven wear.

The previous tyres on the car when I bought it were the dreaded Accelera PH1 and are pretty tough plastic-like tyres, they wore pretty badly on the inner edges over the course of a year.

Not sure why us Brits call it tracking, perhaps it's setting cars up for track use?
So you prefer the PS4 over the F1 in general? And the F1, were they the AS 5 or a previous version?

The PS4's are astonishingly good, no doubt. I'm one that likes change and to see what else might be better. It's always a risk with tyres because if you buy a different set and dont like them as much you're stuck. Thus why I made this post.

Thanks.
 

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I didnt want to start a discussion on alignment settings. I already have toe-in at zero and it 100% is the negative camber that wears the inside edges, yes toe-in adds more wear to the edges but it is the negative camber because the top of the wheels on the axle are closer together than the bottom - that's what negative camber is.

Anyway back to my question- does tyre construction make a difference to inner tyre wear, everything else staying the same?

So I have finished a set of PS4's and they were an awesome tyre but the inner edge is gone. The PS4S use the hybrid technology I mentioned but I dont like that tyre for the road. Just wanting to know if this technology would help here, and if anyone has finished a set of F1 AS 5's
Im afraid you are wrong....about a million posts and a sticky at the top of the page say otherwise. The camber on these is pretty average compared to most cars....but what we have loads of is toes out. I bought my car with tyres worn on the inner edge. I left the camber stock and set the toes to very near zero,,,even wear ever since. You need masses of camber to wear the inside edges. A couple of BMWs i owned were so low that the camber was very obvious to the eye....no excess inner tyre wear.
 

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I've had F1 2's and 3's on my old 147, and was keen to get the latest ones on the 159, but alas not to be. We have the AS5's on a Jag currently, which came fitted on the car when we bought it - I know it's not the same as an Alfa as it's more of a comfortable wafty-around car, but they've proved to be relatively capable tires - they don't get pushed like the MP4S on the Alfa, so can't offer a direct comparison - wear is about what I'd expect for the mileage they have on them.

I have to admit that I think the MP4S are likely the best tyres I've owned in terms of wet grip, comfort (for a low profile tyre at least) and feedback - the added bonus is they seem to wear pretty well too.

I'd suggest whatever you opt for out of these two, you can't lose.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Im afraid you are wrong....about a million posts and a sticky at the top of the page say otherwise. The camber on these is pretty average compared to most cars....but what we have loads of is toes out. I bought my car with tyres worn on the inner edge. I left the camber stock and set the toes to very near zero,,,even wear ever since. You need masses of camber to wear the inside edges. A couple of BMWs i owned were so low that the camber was very obvious to the eye....no excess inner tyre wear.
I have a Q4 TI the suspension may well be different. I have zero degrees toe-in and negative 1.5 degrees camber on all 4 wheels. It's the negative CAMBER that causes inside edge tire wear. Think about it negative 1.5 degrees means the wheel is not vertical, the top is leaning into the cars centre so that means the inside edge touches and the outside edge does not. Its simple physics and it doesnt change if 10000000 people say otherwise, physics is physics. Sorry but negative camber causes inside edge wear. This is a very simple fact. As I said before if you add toe-in (which is what my ti suspension had not toe-out) it will worsen the tire wear. But I have it set to zero anyway, so mute point here.

So once again, I'm not here to debate wheel alignment. What I am curious to know is if a hybrid tyre compound can minimize inside edge wear without changing any alignment settings. That's all I'm curious about.

This new hybrid technology- like the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S - has a different compound on the out edges compared to the center part of the tread. So am just curious on real life experience with this technology.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I've had F1 2's and 3's on my old 147, and was keen to get the latest ones on the 159, but alas not to be. We have the AS5's on a Jag currently, which came fitted on the car when we bought it - I know it's not the same as an Alfa as it's more of a comfortable wafty-around car, but they've proved to be relatively capable tires - they don't get pushed like the MP4S on the Alfa, so can't offer a direct comparison - wear is about what I'd expect for the mileage they have on them.

I have to admit that I think the MP4S are likely the best tyres I've owned in terms of wet grip, comfort (for a low profile tyre at least) and feedback - the added bonus is they seem to wear pretty well too.

I'd suggest whatever you opt for out of these two, you can't lose.
Yes I do agree - either would be great. I might just stick with the Michelins, we'll see.
Thanks.
 

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From my experience with tyres, the MPS4's are very impressive when it comes to road-holding ability. However the new hybrid material technology is excellent in the wet. The ''dynamic response'' technology has a hint of clever marketing - as with all tyres and suspension setups the whole design idea is to maximize the contact patch of the tyre to offer more grip.

It's a similar story in the wet with the Goodyear AS5's, however I believe they marginally suffer in the dry along with braking ability in comparison to the Michelin's. There is an absolute tonne of variables for tyres that can only be compared side-by-side with detailed tyre data for each. It can get very complex very quickly when considering variables such as the maximum lateral force the tyre can generate before loss of grip.

To keep it simple, go with whatever feels best and keep an eye on reviews. If the Michelin's are a tyre that offers superior feedback, and its a formula that works for you. Stick with it!
 

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If you do get the chance to get the AS5's I'd be keen to hear your thoughts.

The issue is, as I see it is that the 159 has an agressive toe in as standard to help with handling, coupled with a heavy nose and flappy lower arm bushes doesn't help - I think Autolusso had videos showing the movement on the different types of bushes, standard and poly - and the difference was staggering.

I opted for the poly bushes and a zero alignment and it's helped my wear no end - I've sacrificed turn-in feel slightly, but I'm not exactly chucking this one around so much.
 

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If the wet grip is better than uniroyals, that's a tyre I gotta try.
Like what someone has said, if you try different tyres and you don't like them, you're stuck with them. Like me with my hankooks.
 

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I have a Q4 TI the suspension may well be different. I have zero degrees toe-in and negative 1.5 degrees camber on all 4 wheels. It's the negative CAMBER that causes inside edge tire wear. Think about it negative 1.5 degrees means the wheel is not vertical, the top is leaning into the cars centre so that means the inside edge touches and the outside edge does not. Its simple physics and it doesnt change if 10000000 people say otherwise, physics is physics. Sorry but negative camber causes inside edge wear. This is a very simple fact. As I said before if you add toe-in (which is what my ti suspension had not toe-out) it will worsen the tire wear. But I have it set to zero anyway, so mute point here.
It is a "simple" fact...but no so simple that you can understand it, it would appear! The fact that most 159 owners who set their cars to zero toe does (yet don't touch the camber) go from wearing the inside edge to even wear...as I did (I have a touch of toe out to be honest...but much less than factory) should be evidence enough...just do a search on here or google it.

Below is a passage from a car handling forum I visit once in a while.... explains it better than I could. As said I did not want to start an argument...so I will leave it there and of course you can believe what you want.......

"Take something round (like a jar lid) and put a rubber band around it to represent a tire. Roll it along a table with zero toe. Rolls no problem right?

Now, angle the lid to represent toe-in. Now roll it while also pushing it straight along just as your car would with toe-in. What happens? The outside edge is leading the inside edge and you are basically scrubbing the tire along the surface. The edge of the rubber band is going to roll under and cause the rubber band to come off the lid.

Repeat the experiment, but now with toe out. Now the inside edge of the tire is leading the outside. Again, you'll notice you are scrubbing the rubber band against the surface as you try to roll it but also keep it going straight ahead.

Lastly, go back to zero toe but add in some camber and try rolling it straight. No prob right? With camber, you'll get wear when you brake and accelerate. But if you're just rolling without braking or accelerating, the tires is not getting scrubbed against the surface and therefore very little wear. However, when you have toe-in or toe-out, you are scrubbing the tire against the road surface 100% of the time which is why toe causes a tire to wear much much faster than camber"
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
It is a "simple" fact...but no so simple that you can understand it, it would appear! The fact that most 159 owners who set their cars to zero toe does (yet don't touch the camber) go from wearing the inside edge to even wear...as I did (I have a touch of toe out to be honest...but much less than factory) should be evidence enough...just do a search on here or google it.

Below is a passage from a car handling forum I visit once in a while.... explains it better than I could. As said I did not want to start an argument...so I will leave it there and of course you can believe what you want.......

"Take something round (like a jar lid) and put a rubber band around it to represent a tire. Roll it along a table with zero toe. Rolls no problem right?

Now, angle the lid to represent toe-in. Now roll it while also pushing it straight along just as your car would with toe-in. What happens? The outside edge is leading the inside edge and you are basically scrubbing the tire along the surface. The edge of the rubber band is going to roll under and cause the rubber band to come off the lid.

Repeat the experiment, but now with toe out. Now the inside edge of the tire is leading the outside. Again, you'll notice you are scrubbing the rubber band against the surface as you try to roll it but also keep it going straight ahead.

Lastly, go back to zero toe but add in some camber and try rolling it straight. No prob right? With camber, you'll get wear when you brake and accelerate. But if you're just rolling without braking or accelerating, the tires is not getting scrubbed against the surface and therefore very little wear. However, when you have toe-in or toe-out, you are scrubbing the tire against the road surface 100% of the time which is why toe causes a tire to wear much much faster than camber"
I never said toe-in/toe-out does not wear tires. I said negative CAMBER wears the inside edge. That's it. Negative camber wears the inside edge of tire. Period.
Yes toe-in/toe-out will cause tire wear one way or another. I didn't say it didn't.

PS: remember I have the Q4 with ti suspension. I think there may be quite a bit more negative camber on that suspension. So even with zero toe - it DOES wear the inside edge, the other suspensions, with possibly less negative camber and zero toe will not be so prevalent. Doesn't change what I said above.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If you do get the chance to get the AS5's I'd be keen to hear your thoughts.

The issue is, as I see it is that the 159 has an agressive toe in as standard to help with handling, coupled with a heavy nose and flappy lower arm bushes doesn't help - I think Autolusso had videos showing the movement on the different types of bushes, standard and poly - and the difference was staggering.

I opted for the poly bushes and a zero alignment and it's helped my wear no end - I've sacrificed turn-in feel slightly, but I'm not exactly chucking this one around so much.
Ok now you just said something that really hit home! I love these forums for getting new ideas!!!

My whole initial reason to look at this topic of "do different tire technologies make a difference in inside edge tire wear - everything else remaining equal" because with this last set of tires I seemed to feel the inside edge wore out more than with previous tires. Because I rotate the tires every 5000 kms I can't tell if it was from the front or rear. I do get an alignment every 10,000kms and know my alignment is right at negative 1.5 degrees at each corner. So I assumed all wheels will wear the inside edge about the same.

But something in the back of my mind had me thinking "I wonder if these PS4's have something to do with it".

You said that worn suspension (bushes etc) could cause some movement. Maybe there is a worn component which has created a new issue which wasn't there when the car was younger. So I will now take the car to a suspension specialist and get it thoroughly checked out to see if any worn components are causing an issue, before getting my next set of tires.

Thanks so much for the comment. Made me think.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
From my experience with tyres, the MPS4's are very impressive when it comes to road-holding ability. However the new hybrid material technology is excellent in the wet. The ''dynamic response'' technology has a hint of clever marketing - as with all tyres and suspension setups the whole design idea is to maximize the contact patch of the tyre to offer more grip.

It's a similar story in the wet with the Goodyear AS5's, however I believe they marginally suffer in the dry along with braking ability in comparison to the Michelin's. There is an absolute tonne of variables for tyres that can only be compared side-by-side with detailed tyre data for each. It can get very complex very quickly when considering variables such as the maximum lateral force the tyre can generate before loss of grip.

To keep it simple, go with whatever feels best and keep an eye on reviews. If the Michelin's are a tyre that offers superior feedback, and its a formula that works for you. Stick with it!
Yes I'm sure there's a lot of marketing hype mixed in with these new"technologies". I do agree either tires are likely to be exceptional.
 
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