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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
those of you that have been following the saga will Know that I recently had built and fitted a hybrid turbo, spec was exactly the same as Damien's (ALFADOIT) spec as having been in the passenger seat of his car I was blown away by the power and responsive nature of his set up.

my car had previously a standard turbo on a very nice responsive map provided by loz when he did my EGR delete...iIwas happy with this but wanted to take it to the next stage so contacted turbo dynamics and discussed the hybrid design with them.

after a while a found a suitable donor turbo a Garrett 777250-1 from a clover with 40k on the clock. sent to turbo dynamics who re-worked the turbo, I then picked it up and went down to Loz for fitting.

My immediate reaction was that the midrange as much improved but that it was spooling much later than it should at around 2200 rpm, this made staying on boost really difficult and driving the car was a drag but i assumed it was a mapping issue and decided to hold of on judgement until it was re-mapped.

I elected to go to Red dot and had the car mapped there...began with a figure of 177 BHP with 240 ft lb and after the mapping ended up with 196 bhp and 314 ft lb..however the real issue and surprise was that the curve had not changed at all, still in late at 2200 rpm and tailing off early at 3500 rpm, Paulo said at the time he thought the VNT actuator was not calibrated correctly.

spoke to Tom at turbo dynamics who said it most likely be ''something else'' Normally I would agree with this but having changed all the sensors (MAF,MAP )and VNT actuator solenoid I had ruled out any power train related issues , all the sensors were Bosch Genuine and fitted by Autolusso south when fitting the turbo.

however in order to move forward I had to get it checked out so I drove down to Loz again and it was all ''double checked'' nothing odd was found and the problem of late spool and early drop off was still present.

after much head scratching it was suggested I go see Ned at autolusso in luton.

I am glad i did as it was an interesting day and ultimately Ned got it sorted..

the red dot map was not helping issues as on investigation the boost limiters were not right, Ned and Wayne loaded about 6 maps today and although things were better each time it was still ''not right''

Ned then said he had an identical Turbo in the building and suggested changing them over..after some thought I decided to go ahead,and...

The car is now Exactly as I envisioned it would be before I elected to go with the hybrid, after driving home round the M25 and through Guildford I can report it kicking in from 1500 rpm is nicely responsive from 1800 rpm, full boost is achieved at around 2k and pulls all the way up the rev range EXACTLY like Damien's

the car goes like stink with power on tap in every gear , driving round town is now easy not requiring multiple gear changes like before.

my conclusions are

1) Autolusso maps are very good and a Dyno is not required to get the result you want,Ned and Wayne tweaked several things on the car resulting in an improvement on the red dot map even before the turbo was changed over, if I had to do this again I would go to Ned first and will be for any further map tweaks.

2) the turbo was definitely the main culprit as on swapping over it was all much better, how much better was not entirely evident until my drive home but needless to say its now awesome, have yet to speak to turbo dynamics but they are decent guys so we should be able to sort something out with all of this.


and finally a very big thanks to Ned for the work today, I feel like I have exactly the car I set out to achieve the drive home was a blast!

no doubt I will need a clutch in the next few months!
 

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Swirl flaps?
Dude.. Only 6 posts in!

Joey, glad you've got this sorted!

You running the exact same map as Damien now? Or holding back a bit because lack of FMIC etc..

I'll catch up with you fella's one day.. Need to sort the important stuff first, ergo swirl flaps are coming out in 2 weeks time :devious:

After that it's just the OEM oil cooler waiting to fail that'll need sorting... Then it's on to the fun stuff :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Dude.. Only 6 posts in!

Joey, glad you've got this sorted!

You running the exact same map as Damien now? Or holding back a bit because lack of FMIC etc..

I'll catch up with you fella's one day.. Need to sort the important stuff first, ergo swirl flaps are coming out in 2 weeks time :devious:

After that it's just the OEM oil cooler waiting to fail that'll need sorting... Then it's on to the fun stuff :thumbup:

holding back a tad Ed, I was never going for the same state of tune as Damien and probably won't I will re -evaluate in the summer re the FMIC but my feeling is that for anything under 220 BHP an FMIC is just not required....I will fit the stainless steel turbo pipes next in an effort to improve the throttle response further..

in the meantime the car is very very quick and the power is always ''bubbling under'' just ready for the right foot to unleash it ..

its great:thumbup:

is your cam belt due? just wondered if you were going to get it done whilst the flaps are being removed.
 

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Glad it's sorted Joe. There's nothing worse than spending the hard-earned with such expectation and then disappointment.

Actually, I can think of lots of things worse but you know what I mean. :jester:
 

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holding back a tad Ed, I was never going for the same state of tune as Damien and probably won't I will re -evaluate in the summer re the FMIC but my feeling is that for anything under 220 BHP an FMIC is just not required....I will fit the stainless steel turbo pipes next in an effort to improve the throttle response further..

in the meantime the car is very very quick and the power is always ''bubbling under'' just ready for the right foot to unleash it ..

its great:thumbup:

is your cam belt due? just wondered if you were going to get it done whilst the flaps are being removed.
Very happy for ya dude :thumbup:

Only covered about 40k miles since the last one, so not due yet... But March is bonus month at work, so I'm getting it done at the same time... Have had a chunk of the bonus earmarked for at least the last 6 months to get the flaps out, and might as well get cambelt and waterpump done at the same time..

Also the last (and only) belt change was done by the dealer at a local Ford dealership before I bought it... So I've got a feeling it's still got the factory tensioner/idler, and tippex on the pulleys...

Plus a slightly rattly alternator I want looking at, and aux belt etc. is due for a change, and a minor oil leak near the rear of the engine....

Just made sense to send it in to Loz and get all these bits done together whilst I'm cash-rich in March :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Very happy for ya dude :thumbup:

Only covered about 40k miles since the last one, so not due yet... But March is bonus month at work, so I'm getting it done at the same time... Have had a chunk of the bonus earmarked for at least the last 6 months to get the flaps out, and might as well get cambelt and waterpump done at the same time..

Also the last (and only) belt change was done by the dealer at a local Ford dealership before I bought it... So I've got a feeling it's still got the factory tensioner/idler, and tippex on the pulleys...

Plus a slightly rattly alternator I want looking at, and aux belt etc. is due for a change, and a minor oily leak near the rear....

Just made sense to send it in to Loz and get all these bits done together whilst I'm cash-rich in March :thumbup:

good stuff, sound like you are getting close to getting it all sorted and ready for modding soo.......



if your considering a hybrid I have my original turbo up for grabs.

£150+postage and its yours..100k on it, runs well but the perfect donor for a hybrid conversion being a 777250-1 and will mean you don't have to have your car off the road for a week...

I may also have a set of blackline wheels up for grabs pretty soon as well as I am getting Damiens 19's...:thumbup:
 

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£150+postage and its yours..100k on it, runs well but the perfect donor for a hybrid conversion being a 777250-1 and will mean you don't have to have your car off the road for a week...

I may also have a set of blackline wheels up for grabs pretty soon as well as I am getting Damiens 19's...:thumbup:
HNNNNGGGGG!!!!!

Want.

The original owner of my Blackline binned the OEM wheels in favour of some aftermarket 5-spoke 5x100 PCD Cloverleaf wannabes, fitted with spigot ring and wobble bolts... Not that I massively dislike them... But they ain't Alfa.... and they're scuffed to s**t...

Will have to hold on and see how March shapes up.. and what (if any) unexpected stuff turns up on Loz's lift...
 

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those of you that have been following the saga will Know that I recently had built and fitted a hybrid turbo, spec was exactly the same as Damien's (ALFADOIT) spec as having been in the passenger seat of his car I was blown away by the power and responsive nature of his set up.

my car had previously a standard turbo on a very nice responsive map provided by loz when he did my EGR delete...iIwas happy with this but wanted to take it to the next stage so contacted turbo dynamics and discussed the hybrid design with them.

after a while a found a suitable donor turbo a Garrett 777250-1 from a clover with 40k on the clock. sent to turbo dynamics who re-worked the turbo, I then picked it up and went down to Loz for fitting.

My immediate reaction was that the midrange as much improved but that it was spooling much later than it should at around 2200 rpm, this made staying on boost really difficult and driving the car was a drag but i assumed it was a mapping issue and decided to hold of on judgement until it was re-mapped.

I elected to go to Red dot and had the car mapped there...began with a figure of 177 BHP with 240 ft lb and after the mapping ended up with 196 bhp and 314 ft lb..however the real issue and surprise was that the curve had not changed at all, still in late at 2200 rpm and tailing off early at 3500 rpm, Paulo said at the time he thought the VNT actuator was not calibrated correctly.

spoke to Tom at turbo dynamics who said it most likely be ''something else'' Normally I would agree with this but having changed all the sensors (MAF,MAP )and VNT actuator solenoid I had ruled out any power train related issues , all the sensors were Bosch Genuine and fitted by Autolusso south when fitting the turbo.

however in order to move forward I had to get it checked out so I drove down to Loz again and it was all ''double checked'' nothing odd was found and the problem of late spool and early drop off was still present.

after much head scratching it was suggested I go see Ned at autolusso in luton.

I am glad i did as it was an interesting day and ultimately Ned got it sorted..

the red dot map was not helping issues as on investigation the boost limiters were not right, Ned and Wayne loaded about 6 maps today and although things were better each time it was still ''not right''

Ned then said he had an identical Turbo in the building and suggested changing them over..after some thought I decided to go ahead,and...

The car is now Exactly as I envisioned it would be before I elected to go with the hybrid, after driving home round the M25 and through Guildford I can report it kicking in from 1500 rpm is nicely responsive from 1800 rpm, full boost is achieved at around 2k and pulls all the way up the rev range EXACTLY like Damien's

the car goes like stink with power on tap in every gear , driving round town is now easy not requiring multiple gear changes like before.

my conclusions are

1) Autolusso maps are very good and a Dyno is not required to get the result you want,Ned and Wayne tweaked several things on the car resulting in an improvement on the red dot map even before the turbo was changed over, if I had to do this again I would go to Ned first and will be for any further map tweaks.

2) the turbo was definitely the main culprit as on swapping over it was all much better, how much better was not entirely evident until my drive home but needless to say its now awesome, have yet to speak to turbo dynamics but they are decent guys so we should be able to sort something out with all of this.


and finally a very big thanks to Ned for the work today, I feel like I have exactly the car I set out to achieve the drive home was a blast!

no doubt I will need a clutch in the next few months!
No problem Joe I am just pleased we sorted it, and thank you for your faith in our ability to be able to fix it

It was a combination of turbo and mapping, I am sure Turbo Dynamics will see you right, the other party may be more challenging

There is still quite a bit of scope to turn the boost up but as you say it will start eating clutches

Ned
 

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So are saying no no to red dot now? I've always heard good reviews but I must admit this has put me in a predicament for my project now


But happy days you got yours sorted buddy!


Try speaking with James at turbo dynamics I've received got great service when I recently got my turbo rebuilt for my accord type R turbo
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
So are saying no no to red dot now? I've always heard good reviews but I must admit this has put me in a predicament for my project now


But happy days you got yours sorted buddy!


Try speaking with James at turbo dynamics I've received got great service when I recently got my turbo rebuilt for my accord type R turbo

I will answer this in the most diplomatic way I can...

was the Autolusso Map I drove away with better than the red dot one..? yes undoubtedly...hands down.

however none of the maps tried changed the point of boost, what I had was a car that was un-driveable at various points, let me explain.

1st gear needed lots of right foot to get moving but the second you changed into 2nd boost was lost so drop in power foot down to keep momentum, then into 3rd..assuming you are cruising at 30 mph in town in 3rd at 1800-2k I had NO boost so putting your foot down resulted in nothing for a good 3 seconds and then a belch of smoke and a push in the back at around 2300 rpm

smoke implies fueling was fine, we had mused that the smaller injectors in the 150 engine ''might'' be the issue also we mused it ''might be the fuel pump as again its different from the 170 pump, lower pressure.

but.

combustion is simple, two components, fuel and air, so physics 101 if the car is boosting late this is down to the calibration of the VNT mechanism IF all other possibilities have been ruled out.

they were. the car had a new MAP and MAF when the turbo was changed and a new VNT solenoid and new vac hose and boost hoses are autolusso silicone ones...and my car unlike Damien's has no FMIC so less volume in the intake should result in less lag not more.

ALL the Autolusso maps were an improvement on the red dot one but none really changed the shape of the torque curve, peak power was increased for sure and maybe altering the boost levels bought it in MINIMALLY earlier..say 100 rpm. but the acid test for me was cruising down the road at 30 in 3rd and hoofing it..still nothing for a good long while and then some power.

on the motorway 6th gear was unusable as I would be doing 90 (theoretically officer) to have the turbo on any kind of usable boost...where I would normally select 5th,4th was better,where 4th 3rd and so on but you cant drive around town in second so that is the situation in which it was most annoying..and not what I paid good money for.


so.. Ned offered the other hybrid as a solution, I was very confident that my turbo was not right so elected to do it. now bear in mind if it was the same I would have to accept it was my car or car/turbo combination added to which although Ned looked after me yesterday he is not a charity and rightly so, I was taking a gamble financially. and when else would I get the chance of a direct comparison..?no brainer really.


anyway,after it was fitted I got back in the car and went for the acid test 30mph in 3rd and bingo! car on boost and she goes off like a kicked cat with the normal very minimal lag....on the A of bang. which is normal for these cars, on the way home every gear is usable at the place you want it, 60mph in 6th is on boost enough to respond when you want,basically the power band crosses gears and it didn't before.

4th and 5th are animal! but she is better all over....honestly grinning like the village idiot on the drive home..


bottom line, we did and could have continued throwing maps at that first hybrid all week long..it just wasn't right...the second it was changed the late boost problem cleared up so QED it WAS undoubtedly the turbo at fault.


so in conclusion,does the TD hybrid work on the 150 cars..yes absolutely ,you don't need the 170 pump or injectors to do it, my car goes as well as Damien's now and there is some more there if I want to tap into it at a later date, although the 170's will make more power when pushed, I think Damien's set up will get him 260+ and I think he will squeeze 280-290 out, where as the 150 cars will be limited by injection at around 230.

stock cooler is good enough at stage 2. (IMO) but we will evaluate that in the summer.

worryingly there is a marked difference between the two hybrid turbo's mine and the replacement..now given they are both 777250-1 to begin with and re-worked to identical spec they should be the same, given the whole premise of turbo dynamics operation is consistent precision engineering then the two turbo's should be identical.

they were not, for me that is a ? that is yet to be resolved, I will hold back judgment until TD have the original back for inspection.

what made this whole thing solvable was the intervention of Ned. so I would advise anyone buying a hybrid and doing the mapping for a GT/147/156 go through Ned, he knows what they should do and in the event there is an issue, if the map,turbo and installation is all done in ONE place you will have a much easier time of it in the event the car does not meet expectations.

this has been a rough,frustrating and costly time.

had I have elected to have it all done under one roof problem solving would have been easier,quicker and cheaper and TBH if Ned went back to turbo dynamics saying it wasn't right I suspect it would have been acknowledged immediately and sorted. I questioned the turbo straight away and as told by Turbo Dynmics ''it is likely something else'' and to be fair to them in these cases it normally is..

so to answer your question, I would go to Ned for mapping over red dot ..I don't want to get caught up in anything political but the AL map is the better of the two...even before the turbo swap, red dot do not specialize in just Alfa's Ned does, it isn't just the map to consider but also a working knowledge of the mechanical's and where it can be pushed and when to hold back.


no offence to red dot and Paulo did point straight at the turbo when the car was not right...but I can only speak as I find and am just relaying my experience to the forum.

if you plan a hybrid on an Alfa then def Ned all the way IMO

in retrospect having driven been in Damien's car and wanting to emulate it ,my decision to go to red dot seems a bit counter productive.

to quote Ned ''every day is a school day''


you live and learn.
 

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nice reply and its very true Rd don't just work on alfa's and Al do but TD only work on turbo's and fault is pointed at the turbo.. lets hope things get resolved

getting work done in house is a valuable point but for me ive always done everything myself takes a little longer but what a great learning experience.. I'm aiming at the GTB kit from Joel @ jtd performance
 
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