[boyse7en]

:depressed:

Terrible clutch judder when pulling away now. So I think the clutch, and probably the DMF, on my V6 are finally kaput.

Can't see that it is going to get repaired. I've had the car for 12 years and love it to bits but the paintwork is not good and the wheels are corroded badly so it looks terrible. The underneath is good, new timing belt and front suspension etc. But realistically it is worth buttons.
A new clutch is about £600 to get fitted, and if the DMF needs replacing that is another £600 just for the parts.
So if I get it repaired £1200 will give me a good-driving but scruffy-looking 17 year old car.

It's never worth it...

 

[ChrisS]

Bit marginal isn't it. I've got a spare solid flywheel so that could reduce the parts cost of clutch/flywheel to about £300 (actual clutch kit for solid or DMF is the same price at about £150). Still got the labour though.

As a donor/spares car, depending on other details, it could be worth up to £500 or thereabouts I guess.

I still love my Sporto, but dread something serious going wrong as that would be the end of it if it was something needing expensive parts. Labour, no problem I'd just DIY. I kept all the decent bits I didn't want for the project off the one I broke just in case I could use them on the Sporto. Sods law dictates something else will go wrong of course.

 

[lizard]

I have a clutch for DMF, used only for 2 months or so if you are interested.

 

[boyse7en]

OK, Couple of things I didn't know here...


Are all teh V6 models with a DMF, or do some have solid? How can you tell which is fitted?

Might be interested in the clutch/flywheel you guys mention, but I've only ever done a clutch on a Mini 1275GT and I'm thinking that this might be a bigger proposition.

 

[lizard]

All 166 Alfas with V6 have DMF from factory, as much as I know also a TS model has DMF.

Only if previous owner fitted a SMF, then it has one. The clutch is of course different for DMF and SMF.

How to tell a difference - hard if you can't compere it directly with the same car which has a different flywheel. With DMF you get less vibrations from the engine, acceleration and ride is smoother, with SMF engine is more responsive and it revs slightly easier. Also the gearbox is under more stress when combined with SMF.

 

[boyse7en]

Ah OK. So as this will be the original clutch in the car, it will be a DMF.

Just found this on eBay, looks suspiciously cheap to me... But then it could be a clearance, as I don't suppose the clutches are in great demand
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Valeo-3-P...V6+24V&hash=item4af5d17534:g:XWkAAOSw~bFWMLJ1

Its described as:

Valeo 3 Piece Clutch to Fit Alfa Romeo 166 (936) 1998-2007 821363 VCK3860

3 Piece Clutch Set with Bearing

Alfa Romeo 166 (936) 1998-2007

No. of Teeth; 20
Dia; 235mm

All for less than £90. Bargain or too good to be true

At that price, it might be worth trying to do it myself. I've done replaced the timing belt, is a clutch harder than that??

 

[ChrisS]

Clutch job on a V6 would be a bit of a pig. Easy enough once the box is off.....but that's the hard part. The highlights, you'd need to drop the exhaust, probably also remove the rear manifold to get at the starter so also need to remove alternator to get at the manifold...., pull the driveshafts, remove the starter, or at least, undo it from the bellhousing (this job is a total PITA in-situ and really needs a custom made bent spanner) plus all the ancillary bits & bobs of course, then make enough space to remove the box itself.

I think if was faced with that job, I'd seriously consider dropping the entire engine/box/suspension subframe - e-learn suggests you can do the job with the engine more or less in-situ and the sub frame just lowered a bit but either way, you need to remove a but-load of stuff, and of course, you can bet loads of things don't come undone easily.

Big job.....

I'm really not convinced of the benefits of a DMF on a petrol engine, particularly a V6. Diesels, maybe so as the torque pulses are bigger. The GTA uses a solid flywheel....which is where they all seem to come from for the likes of me who want to get rid of a DMF. Overall, a used solid plus new clutch (for solid) will cost you about half the price of a new DMF, and then you still have to buy the clutch kit for the DMF.

As Lizard says, clutches are different between the two types. Only significant change is that the friction plate for a solid flywheel setup has springs to isolate the hub from the plate and soak up shocks, a friction plate for a DMF is 'solid' no springs.

I think a clutch on it's last legs was one of a number of factors that led to the Super I bought as a donor being put up for sale. No problem for me as I would have put a solid flywheel in it regardless.

That clutch looks fine based on the part number, but bear in mind the photo is generic, not an actual 166 clutch of any flavour. If you get in there and find you need a DMF....gulp. The car I stripped was OK to drive, but the clutch was feeling a bit heavy. On inspection, the friction plate was just down to the rivets and there was obvious play & slack in the DMF.

This one shows and OEM kit http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alfa-Romeo-...069738?hash=item2a5df69daa:g:4O4AAOxydINSXT2t You can see the 'solid' centre on the friction plate and the retaining ring for the pull-release bearing on the cover plate.

 

[boyse7en]

Cheers Chris,

Sounds a pig of a job, but not much worse than replacing the head gasket on a Citroen XM diesel, which had bolts a gibbon couldn't reach As long as no specialist tools are required, i've got the usual sockets/spanners/hammers etc

What are the signs of a failed DMF? Car is fine to drive once on the move, but clutch has to be pressed into the carpet to get it into first and then it judder badly when pulling away.
Or is it something you have to get the flywheel in your hands to see/test?

I suppose the best way would be to take the car to bits, then see what I need. If only it could have gone wrong in better weather!

 

[Pomeo]

:depressed:

Terrible clutch judder when pulling away now. So I think the clutch, and probably the DMF, on my V6 are finally kaput.

Can't see that it is going to get repaired. I've had the car for 12 years and love it to bits but the paintwork is not good and the wheels are corroded badly so it looks terrible. The underneath is good, new timing belt and front suspension etc. But realistically it is worth buttons.
A new clutch is about £600 to get fitted, and if the DMF needs replacing that is another £600 just for the parts.
So if I get it repaired £1200 will give me a good-driving but scruffy-looking 17 year old car.

It's never worth it...

No Boyzone No butt ken what ewe mean....The straw? . See Hear (LOL)
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-164-andamp-166/931202-current-166-scrap-keep-threshold.html
.....Dreading the day mines go....Done the wee Bravos myself on Halfords 46 years old car ramps gearbox on shoulder but was a lot younger then and that looks a load easier wrt to the 166.

Cheers Chris,

Sounds a pig of a job, but not much worse than replacing the head gasket on a Citroen XM diesel, which had bolts a gibbon couldn't reach As long as no specialist tools are required, i've got the usual sockets/spanners/hammers etc

What are the signs of a failed DMF? Car is fine to drive once on the move, but clutch has to be pressed into the carpet to get it into first and then it judder badly when pulling away.
Or is it something you have to get the flywheel in your hands to see/test?

I suppose the best way would be to take the car to bits, then see what I need. If only it could have gone wrong in better weather!

IIRC TIas clutch has been done once or twice by previous owners garage and one was combined with a noo flywheel but at the price on receipt doubt it will have been a DMF. so she will be a strip doon to see what is what as even wie Lucy's exhaust you cannae go wie eper.(Until you scrutinise closely and see what the correct part is).
The weather..the weather AARGH. The 3 day forecast has changed more times than the wife picking the 6th lottery no. LOL

Pomeo

 

[Pud237]

The question is, what else would you rather have for £1200?

 

[purple145]

I did the clutch on the 166 V6, never again. It seems every part of the job is difficult, the famed starter motor bolts were actually not too bad, bad points were;

napping the earth strap bolt on the gear box, remove the bolt that secures the strap to the body instead
use a 3/8 socket for the starter bolts and have at least two extensions at hand
take a picture of the path of the wiring over the gear box to get it back in correctly
take care popping off the gear cables from the gear box, they can break
good idea to check the driveshaft boots while you are there and they are in bits, and have new ones to hand if they are knackered
have a pot of Ralgex handy, and a few beers for when it done!

HTH

 

[115686]

Surely the starter is the same problem as the 156 v6, which is easily fixed by bending a gooseneck spanner that you can get from Halfords for £5?

Pud is right .... how much would you have to pay for something comparable?

 

[ChrisS]

Cheers Chris,

Sounds a pig of a job, but not much worse than replacing the head gasket on a Citroen XM diesel, which had bolts a gibbon couldn't reach As long as no specialist tools are required, I've got the usual sockets/spanners/hammers etc

What are the signs of a failed DMF? Car is fine to drive once on the move, but clutch has to be pressed into the carpet to get it into first and then it judder badly when pulling away.
Or is it something you have to get the flywheel in your hands to see/test?

I suppose the best way would be to take the car to bits, then see what I need. If only it could have gone wrong in better weather!

Re the DMF, there should be no 'rock' in the inner section (bearings going) and no free rotational play (springs going). In reality, you'd most likely find it had a bit of both. How much is too much......

Given the amount of labour involved, I would want to make sure it was all good for the foreseeable myself. Either new DMF & clutch kit, or solid & clutch kit, and be careful when assembling the release bearing too! It's simple in theory, but I know folk who have messed this bit up.

If you do go for it, another tip I'd suggest, get some M10 bolts the same thread as the main bellhousing bolts but a bit longer, cut the heads off, cut a screwdriver slot in them just in case you need a hand getting them in or out. During removal, take out the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock position (or thereabouts) bolts and replace them with your cut down ones. These will help the box come off cleanly without hanging up on the input shaft. Leave them in place for when you re-fit as it makes it a whole lot easier to hang the box on those bolts for alignment and to help carry the weight. The dowels on the lower bolts do the true alignment once it's close, but having those studs sticking out is a real help.

Removing the entire subframe with engine & box does involve removing more parts and you have to drop the coolant of course, but once it's out, the rest is easy and you won't be working upside down. Given a 2 post lift and a fully equipped workshop with all the right gearbox jacks & fixings etc then by all means do it in situ, it's the official method after all.

Keep us posted.

 

[boyse7en]

"Given a 2 post lift and a fully equipped workshop with all the right gearbox jacks & fixings etc then by all means do it in situ, it's the official method after all"

How about given two trolley jacks, a box full of random spanners and sockets and a garden gazebo on the drive????



What could i get for £1200?
This? Alfa Romeo 159 2.2 JTS Lusso 4dr

 

[Pud237]

What could i get for £1200?
This? Alfa Romeo 159 2.2 JTS Lusso 4dr

Incredibly cheap, I'd have said thats a £2000+ car easily.

Even so, I think I'd rather spend the money on doing the 166 clutch and sticking with the V6.

 

[GLPoomobile]

What could i get for £1200?
This? Alfa Romeo 159 2.2 JTS Lusso 4dr

The price of that 159 sets alarm bells ringing. Why on earth would they sell it that cheap when it's just had a full service inc timing chain? If it looks too good to be true, it probably is, so to my mind there has to be more than that one than meets the eye. And lets say you bought that - you've got a car that's not as pretty as a 166 (I love the 159 TIs but lesser spec ones just don't do it for me), slower, slightly pricier VED, less characterful engine, and no better economy going by the specs (or barely better at best). Any £1200 car (or less) is going to hit you with plenty of bills along the way unless you are extremely lucky/prudent, so sometimes it's better the devil you know.

I sold my 166 after spending a lot of money on it as I could forsee more big bills in the near future. It was a stupid thing to do in hindsight. I should have just dug in and accepted the expenditure to keep it ship shape and keep a very rare car. Given what I sold it for, what I paid for the replacement Volvo and what I've spent on the Volvo since, if I'd spent the same on the 166 it would have been very well maintained right now.

 

[ChrisS]

"Given a 2 post lift and a fully equipped workshop with all the right gearbox jacks & fixings etc then by all means do it in situ, it's the official method after all"

How about given two trolley jacks, a box full of random spanners and sockets and a garden gazebo on the drive????



What could i get for £1200?
This? Alfa Romeo 159 2.2 JTS Lusso 4dr

It's certainly do-able, just a question of how willing you are really. It'll be a pig. If you go into it knowing that, and not having a stupid deadline, then it needn't be a big deal, it'll just take a while. Expect every shortcut to fail, so if one actually works, it's a bonus! You'll probably need exhaust manifold to downpipe gaskets, 3 exhaust manifold gaskets, probably some studs & nuts as well, expect to have to drill out at least one of the manifold to downpipe studs....probably all the bolts holding the downpipe/flexis onto the CAT in case you want to remove that to make life a bit easier. Gasket for that one too really. Gear oil will need draining and refilling, driveshaft bolts can be a PITA so make sure you've got the patience to ensure the cap heads are properly cleaned out BEFORE you try and undo them. New oil filter, some way of holding the engine up once you remove the mount on the gearbox, balljoint splitter to remove the TREs so you can remove the NS upright/spring/damper/A arm assembly, clutch slave cylinders have a nasty habit of leaking shortly after being disturbed like this - the piston will come out a long way once you remove if from the gearbox and a tired piston seal often gets damaged as it goes past the inevitable wear in the bore that it doesn't normally get to....if you can hold the piston in it's normal position and keep it that way after taking it off that should help.

Not trying to put you off, just a heads up of the potential joy awaiting you

Like I always say, hope for the best, expect the worst, avoid disappointment.

 

[boyse7en]

I might be lucky with some of that, as I had to replace the long downpipe and Cat last year so the bolts shouldn't be too corroded up I hope. Had to drill enough bolts out then!

I haven't got a deadline in particular. I only do 5000 miles a year in it so I can make do for a while.

Found a rough "how-to" for replacing the 156 V6 clutch so hoping that much of the process is similar to that.

Weather and wife permitting, I'm going to start taking stuff apart this weekend. Be prepared for loads of questions as I get deeper in!

 

[ChrisS]

Good man!

 

[markies]

I might be lucky with some of that, as I had to replace the long downpipe and Cat last year so the bolts shouldn't be too corroded up I hope. Had to drill enough bolts out then!

I haven't got a deadline in particular. I only do 5000 miles a year in it so I can make do for a while.

Found a rough "how-to" for replacing the 156 V6 clutch so hoping that much of the process is similar to that.

Weather and wife permitting, I'm going to start taking stuff apart this weekend. Be prepared for loads of questions as I get deeper in!

Good luck