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Discussion Starter #1
I know the question of using an ex 75 Twin Spark engine in a 105 series, eg a 1750, is a well trodden path, but rather than asking is it a good idea, whats the feeling about this in terms of a cars value, now and in the future, v a standard Nord engine car?
As this seems to be a popular and promoted conversion, eg by Alfaholics, presumeably its an accepted one that now has its own place in the (modified) market.
Just one practical question to round off, looking through some older threads on the TS subject, is it correct that its only the head which is changed, so that the block, g/box and general mountings are virtually the same, hence the practicality of doing it?
 

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I think it is broadly accepted in much the same way as many classic yank cars are modern-retro modded. Value will ultimately depend on finding the right buyer. My own feeling is that the TS mod is OK if you are going the whole hog with a high end Alfaholics style GTAm evocation and their value is somewhat determined by the hours and sheer cost of parts involved. Not that a builder would likely recover full costs. An original is, I think, always going to have a wider market and would be easier to sell later, irrespective of sticker price.

I don't think any major structural changes are needed for the TS upgrade but can't say I've looked in enough detail. I can't see any reason why the head would need work other than for improved performance reasons or to create a period look.

I imagine the gearbox, certainly the bellhousing at least would need changing?
 

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Given that the 75 gearbox lives under the rear seat then yes, you would need to change this...

The 75 Twinspark block is similar in basic architecture to the Nord so a 105 sump, oil pump, mounts and bellhousing all fit but you can't just plonk a TS head on a Nord block without changing a bunch of other parts. So if you're going to do it then start with a 75 engine.
 

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If you are going to put a more modern engine in a 105 then a twinspark is certainly the one to go for. But in my view unless you have a really good reason to do it I think it better to stick with the conventional 105 engine.
In terms of reasons, then the only valid one to me would be to get a serious increase in power, but you would have to back that up with a full rebuild of all the other parts too. A standard or mildly tweeked 2.0 Nord provides enough poke to make the Car go pretty well.

I know some people seem to want to do it for reliability reasons, but I'm not convinced it's worth it, more complications usually mean worse reliability rather than better.
 

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Does the TS engine mate to the standard Nord box, Jim? I'd have thought it wouldn't be up to the extra power?
 

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I believe it does Jim, but with a different or modified flywheel.
As standard it's not that much more powerful, it just has more tuning potential.
 

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I believe it does Jim, but with a different or modified flywheel.
As standard it's not that much more powerful, it just has more tuning potential.
I was coming at it from that POV Mitch, as in why bother if you don't get the power so does the box cope with 190-215bhp?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Some interesting pov's, good stuff. Where I was coming from, hence one of the original questions, was the +/-'s of buying an already Twin sparked 105, not actually doing it myself. Within those +/- there would of course be the value and saleability angle.
As I see it so long as the the price reflects the market view of a modded car, ie less x% on a standard one then I guess thats fine.
So another question for a bit of chin rubbing......Is it a) better to buy an average/goodish standard car and accept the need to spend to get it up to scratch, or b) buy a really nice well restored upgraded and modified car, lets say with a TS engine, for a similar price?
I suppose the answer is it depends what you want, but I know which I would rather have from a useability and bank balance pov!
 

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I think, like in many things, if it is just a TS "thrown in" to a not great shell with no attention to other sensible upgrades it will be less valuable than a middle of the road standard example. Done "right" I think they are likely to be more expensive than an equivalent standard 2000GTV at least but then they'll cost a lot more to get to that state than an equivalent Nord engined version. You pays yer money etc.
 

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My new project gtv2000 came with a 75 TS engine (and no original engine) so I am happily going down the TS route. I'm not a purist though and am not concerned with future values, more concerned with current enjoyment.
 

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I think the debate depends on the purpose of the car/project. If youre planing on owning the car for a while, playing a bit and then selling, stick with Nord. If youre happy with 10-20% over standard, stick with Nord. However Im currently switching mine to TS as I have no plan on ever selling the car. As the TS has 150hp as standard and I concluded that its actually a cheaper way to make 170hp+.
 

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I think the debate depends on the purpose of the car/project. If youre planing on owning the car for a while, playing a bit and then selling, stick with Nord. If youre happy with 10-20% over standard, stick with Nord. However Im currently switching mine to TS as I have no plan on ever selling the car. As the TS has 150hp as standard and I concluded that its actually a cheaper way to make 170hp+.
Are you documenting your conversion anywhere? I would like to follow progress :thumbs:
 
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Unless you want a track car or racer (or a GTA replica), I can't see the point of getting a 105 and then putting a TS engine in it. Originality will command a premium in the classic/collector market and I have definitely seen that in my search for a car. But of course there will always be people that will pay a good price for a well set up fast road/track oriented car. However as Jim says you will not get your money back from building such a car to a high level (unless you can do a lot of work yourself).

But at the end of the day it's your car and you can do whatever you want with it. I would at least keep the original engine.
 

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If you are building the car for your own use the twin spark is a far superior engine, and if you still have a nord engine it extremely easy to reverse the conversion should it be worthwhile when you come to sell
 

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I guess if you want ultimate performance from your 105 go for a TS as it's a cheaper way to get 200+BHP. Will it affect the future value? Who knows, if originality becomes a major issue in 105s yes it will. For me I wouldn't want to go for a TS conversion as I don't want an ultimate track 105; but I understand why people would :D
 

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Discussion Starter #16
As I mentioned I dont plan to install a TS engine in a 105, but if I buy one already done just want to get a feeling that I'm not buying a dog, in the sense that the value is much less and its 'unsaleable' in future - just a practical issue really.
Swallow - Would be interested in yr experience, and whilst I agree enjoyment is key, the above is also relevant. I tend to buy and sell some cars quite quickly so its a consideration for me.
I have and have had various marques and the general rule is that a modified car will always be worth less than an original, particularly the higher up the desirability curve you go. That is fine so long as everyone understands that and its reflected in the price of course! The market dictates.
 

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As I mentioned I dont plan to install a TS engine in a 105, but if I buy one already done just want to get a feeling that I'm not buying a dog, in the sense that the value is much less and its 'unsaleable' in future - just a practical issue really.
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A documented conversion would be a good start - then check that against what pro's like Alfaholics would do - no documentation could mean a dangerous piece of kit - I'd value a TS as lower than a standard 105
 
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As I mentioned I dont plan to install a TS engine in a 105, but if I buy one already done just want to get a feeling that I'm not buying a dog, in the sense that the value is much less and its 'unsaleable' in future - just a practical issue really.
So ask yourself why you are buying a 105. A 105 with a TS engine isn't a 105 IMO. If you want ultimate performance OK, but why not consider something like a GTV6 then? Probably cheaper, will go faster and the V6 has more performance potential. If you want to experience what made the 105 such a great car for its time, you need it with the original engine. Just IMO of course!;)

You'll always be able to sell it but you will definitely have a smaller market and it won't command the premium that original cars will have, especially over time. I've been looking for a 105 for two years and I'm afraid anything with a TS engine never got considered.
 

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I'm currently considering whether to rebuild and tweak my Nord engine or fit a twinspark (should I be able to find one, they are becoming increasingly hard to find). The originality, sound and feel of carbs is attractive but people who should know have told me the Twinspark is more torquey at the low end, gives an extra 15-20hp out of the box and is more reliable. That all sounds very logical.

The cars are about driving for me and while I don't want a trackday 180hp weapon I'd quite like a little bit of extra power and reliability (hush your mouths those who say I can't handle the power I've got now) which will make the car more enjoyable. And, it has to be said that financially, fitting a twinspark is a lower cost way of getting a bit of extra power compared to cam and head work on a Nord.

So if a worthwhile Nord engine comes up I might take that. My engine's non original anyway. If not I'll tweak the Nord and probably be just as happy. I'd probably keep the original engine if that ever needed to be refitted.

Value wise, I've always found the 105 market to be very tolerant of sensible or period modifications, certainly compared to stuff like E types with their originality fetish. Yes there's a place for a completely original car but modified cars don't seem to be penalised a great deal.
 
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