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Rejoice!


Here in DERVland France a number of issues have started discussions
in newspapers and on TV about reducing DERV usage.


False economies for people buying new DERVs (especially small ones)
who don't do many kilometres.

(Cars are more expensive and the price of DERV has rocketed.)


Constant pollution alerts in some areas with restricted speed limit.
(My trip up-and-back to Grenoble this week was curtailled by smog
and a 110kph speed limit. :rolleyes:)


In this bastion of the devil's fuel it's now being seen as dirty and no longer
much cheaper than the true fuel.


About time, I say!

:thumbs:
 

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Rejoice!


Here in DERVland France a number of issues have started discussions
in newspapers and on TV about reducing DERV usage.


False economies for people buying new DERVs (especially small ones)
who don't do many kilometres.

(Cars are more expensive and the price of DERV has rocketed.)


Constant pollution alerts in some areas with restricted speed limit.
(My trip up-and-back to Grenoble this week was curtailled by smog
and a 110kph speed limit. :rolleyes:)


In this bastion of the devil's fuel it's now being seen as dirty and no longer
much cheaper than the true fuel.


About time, I say!

:thumbs:

I agree wholeheartedly! :thumbs:
 

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I just wish I was as well off as you guys who run petrol powered cars, I just wish I could join you, but I just cannot afford the additional £1500 - £2000 a year I would have to spend on fuel.

But I'm not a miser or a satanist, just not as well off as you guys.
 

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I just wish I was as well off as you guys who run petrol powered cars, I just wish I could join you, but I just cannot afford the additional £1500 - £2000 a year I would have to spend on fuel.

But I'm not a miser or a satanist, just not as well off as you guys.
I'm not being serious of course:thumbs:
 

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I just wish I was as well off as you guys who run petrol powered cars, I just wish I could join you, but I just cannot afford the additional £1500 - £2000 a year I would have to spend on fuel.

But I'm not a miser or a satanist, just not as well off as you guys.
Understood!:thumbs:

(I'm not that well off- I just don't do that many miles. You must do an awful lot of miles to spend that much extra from derv to petrol!! :eek:)
 

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I do c50 miles a day @ c22mpg in my Brera, mostly on fast cross country B roads with a short fast blast on a 3 lane a road.

A 2.4 Brera would have cost a lot more than my lightly used 3.2 and it would be in the dealers with DPF Swril & egr issues and spending c£800 for modifications to get around these issues that are doubtful from an insurance & MOT perspective and make smoke like a cruiser being hunted down by the Bismark seems bonkers to me.

From the threads on here, I'd only be getting about 12 mpg more too.

Aural pleasure & Q4 aside, do they still make financial sense?
 

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With all the carp bolted onto diesel engines these days, to own a diesel if you are only doing short distance or lots of urban driving does not make sense. In fact I would go so far to say if you are a city/large town dweller and that is where you do your miles, to buy a diesel is lunacy.

Nev, having driven one, I would love the TBI 1750 engine under my bonnet.
 

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i have to say if i was loaded then a dirty great V6 or V8 would be sitting on my drive right now


as it is, i'm not, so i'll have to make do with a diseasel with enough power & torque to absolutely demolish your average petrol car :p
 

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With all the carp bolted onto diesel engines these days, to own a diesel if you are only doing short distance or lots of urban driving does not make sense. In fact I would go so far to say if you are a city/large town dweller and that is where you do your miles, to buy a diesel is lunacy.

Nev, having driven one, I would love the TBI 1750 engine under my bonnet.
I had too much hassle with the carp bolted on my diesel 147.With the EGR sticking when still under warranty despite what I thought was ideal motorway use . I now have different stuff with the Multiair.
 

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I will probably do less than 15k/year in fact probably more like 10 or 11k in my GT. The diesel cars I looked at (only on Autotrader) looked no more expensive that their petrol brethren.

I have never owned a diesel before, had one or two as lease/co cars but never my own. It sounds a bit **** and I could never be passionate about the engine but with the GT looks who gives.
 

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Injectors, dual mass flywheels, DPF, EGR etc. Just not worth it. We have a Diesel XC90, and it makes sense in that lump from a driveability point of view, but it is costing a lot in maintenance right now (7 years old) with failing injectors, turbo intercooler failing etc etc.

So if you are thinking of buying a diesel to save money, it is a huge false economy in my opinion.

In anything other than a heavy lump that needs lots of torque, stick with petrol.
 

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I'm quite ambivalent about it. I can see both sides.

I've subscribed to Nev's point of view all my motoring life, that is until recently.

As an experiment I've gone over to the dark side and have an oil burner at the moment. For me that decision was simple because the 2.7 HDi simply out-performs the 3.0 petrol equivalent in all departments, including power and acceleration. The fact that I now see 42 mpg on long bashes through France rather than the 28 mpg I used to get (same speeds and loads) from my 166 is a bonus. Given the price differential in France it works out at effectively half the fuel cost (improved economy, cheaper fuel).

However. Modern diesels are more stressed than their petrol counterparts and they have more bits (turbos, EGR, injectors, filters) to go expensively wrong. Add to into that mix the fact that diesel is more expensive (in the UK) and road tolls make up a large part of motoring costs in France and the savings tend to be a moot point.

I have decided my next car will be a petrol again.

Then again, I'm off to the Alps next week and I'm looking forward to being able to make it from London on one tankful of the evil stuff.
 

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I do c50 miles a day @ c22mpg in my Brera, mostly on fast cross country B roads with a short fast blast on a 3 lane a road.

A 2.4 Brera would have cost a lot more than my lightly used 3.2 and it would be in the dealers with DPF Swril & egr issues and spending c£800 for modifications to get around these issues that are doubtful from an insurance & MOT perspective and make smoke like a cruiser being hunted down by the Bismark seems bonkers to me.

From the threads on here, I'd only be getting about 12 mpg more too.

Aural pleasure & Q4 aside, do they still make financial sense?
Personally, I don't care what engines people choose, that's up to them and their own circumstances, but quite often in forums I see this debate and the pro petrol people tend to be a bit economic with the truth.
Yes, the 2.4 would cost more to buy than the 3.2 but then it would also be worth more when you come to sell so swings and roundabouts.

In terms of "only" getting another 12mpg, that's about a 55% increase! If you look at the extra cost of diesel at the pumps, (which petrolheads go on about as though it's much dearer) it's actually only about 5% dearer. So, you're getting 54% better economy at an increased 5% fuel cost. It's not rocket science to work out that financially you're much better off with a diesel in fuel cost terms.

Then look at the relative performances of the 2 cars in question. The 3.2 is slightly quicker 0 to 60 (traditionally where diesels are poor versus a petrol) but only by about 0.8 seconds. However, the diesel has more torque (400Nm v 322Nm) and so in real world driving is probably as quick (if not quicker) and more relaxing to drive if you want to use the torque. The diesel is also lower insurance group and VED rating, so further cost savings to be made here.

Having said all that, these are cold hard numbers and obviously sound, feel and lots of other things come into play. Personally, I like the way diesels drive much better than a normally aspirated petrol as they have so much more torque. Doesn't matter what gear you're in you can just floor it and go. Horses for courses though. I also have a Kawasaki ZX6R and I wouldn't swap the noise of that at 16,000 rpm for anything but then that's where I get my petrol fix.

One thing I have noticed with the diesel Alfa we have now (159 SW Ti 2.0Jtdm) is that it behaves very petrol like. Other than having a lot more low down pull than a petrol it actually gets quicker and quicker as it approaches the red line, just like our old 2.5 Petrol turbo Smax did. Very un-diesel like.
 

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Rejoice!

Constant pollution alerts in some areas with restricted speed limit.
(My trip up-and-back to Grenoble this week was curtailled by smog
and a 110kph speed limit. :rolleyes:)
Out of interest, why are fingers pointing at diesels for the smog when in the US they've had massive problems with smog where there are very few diesels?
 

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ALL modern engines have loads of crazy expensive parts bolted to them, not just the diesels. We've rebuilt a few 2.2 JTS and they are mental compared to a Twinspark in the cost of replacement parts. Try replacing injectors on a 2.2 or 3.2 JTS, that will set you back more than an inlet manifold on a 2.4. In comparison, modern engines are definitely not as tough as engines were 10 or 20 years ago, and the near-on doubling of service intervals doesn't help either. I would bet good money on there being barely any 20 year old cars left on the road when it gets to 2031.
 

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ALL modern engines have loads of crazy expensive parts bolted to them, not just the diesels. We've rebuilt a few 2.2 JTS and they are mental compared to a Twinspark in the cost of replacement parts. Try replacing injectors on a 2.2 or 3.2 JTS, that will set you back more than an inlet manifold on a 2.4. In comparison, modern engines are definitely not as tough as engines were 10 or 20 years ago, and the near-on doubling of service intervals doesn't help either. I would bet good money on there being barely any 20 year old cars left on the road when it gets to 2031.
That must be down to the amount of power manufacturers are extracting from the engines these days. A Multiair 1.4, even at 135bhp is around twice the power that would be expected of a 1.4, say 10 -15 years ago, something has to give.
 
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