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Discussion Starter #1
Is the ridiculous proposition of small cars with small DERV units finally at an end?



The new Renault Twingo with it's rear-mount engine is launching as a petrol only model.





Huzzah! :thumbs:
 

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The Twingo was designed with electrification in mind, but it was chopped after the failure of the company's previous models (Twizy, Fluence flopped, and even the Nissan Leaf is only bobbing along).

I guess the plan was petrol for cost-conscious buyers, and electric for people looking for low emissions. Also, I'm not sure Renault-Nissan have a small enough diesel engine..

Biggest problem with small electric cars is that those buyers who are concerned enough about lower running costs to consider electric cars are exactly the ones who will compare lifetime costs of a second-hand small petrol engined car against a new electric one.
 

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Is the ridiculous proposition of small cars with small DERV units finally at an end?



The new Renault Twingo with it's rear-mount engine is launching as a petrol only model.





Huzzah! :thumbs:
I think you are right. What can be achieved with small capacity turbo petrol engines these days puts small diesels out of the game.
 

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But do the benefits that can be achieved with small capacity turbo petrol engines depend more on how they are driven than with a diesel?

I'm guessing the diesel still has the edge, performance vs cost, if my experience with the TwinAir's fuel consumption is typical.
 

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Having just done the rounds in driving several small new cars, I looked at the diesel vs petrol options. All the versions I drove were petrol 900cc to 1200cc and they were superb. Smooth and ample enough power and still pretty reasonable on economy and tax.

Nearly all the dealers when quizzed, said that unless you are doing 15k to 20k miles + per year, that the petrol is the better bet, and the added complexity and cost of maintaining/fixing the diesels really does it no favours.

All said that if the car was to be used mostly for city use/school runs/short commutes then avoid the diesels like the plague. And I imagine that is what 99% of small cars will be used for.
 

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Having just done the rounds in driving several small new cars, I looked at the diesel vs petrol options. All the versions I drove were petrol 900cc to 1200cc and they were superb. Smooth and ample enough power and still pretty reasonable on economy and tax.

Nearly all the dealers when quizzed, said that unless you are doing 15k to 20k miles + per year, that the petrol is the better bet, and the added complexity and cost of maintaining/fixing the diesels really does it no favours.

All said that if the car was to be used mostly for city use/school runs/short commutes then avoid the diesels like the plague. And I imagine that is what 99% of small cars will be used for.
Sounds like an honest opinion from the dealers:wow: unless the profit margin is better on the petrol:)
 

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Profits are lower on diesels, but long-term, service income is higher.

If you live in the UK, it's seems hard to explain why diesels are still popular, but there's one very good reason that you don't see: the UK is almost the only country in Europe where diesel fuel is more expensive than petrol; in everywhere else, a litre of petrol is between €0.02 and €0.25 more expensive than a litre of diesel. (Switzerland is the only other country to tax diesel more heavily than petrol - their reason being the typically Swiss one: a litre of diesel contains more energy, and thus has a greater taxable good than a litre of petrol)

Combine this lower tax with the better mileage from a diesel, and it gets hard to make a case for a petrol car, no matter what improvements are made in the engines.
 

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Apart from when you consider initial higher cost of purchasing a diesel car and the higher maintenance costs going forwards....
 

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Higher secondhand prices on diesel cars (significantly higher, in the case of Ireland) outweigh these.

Trust me: I want to buy a petrol, but there is no way I can justify it.
 

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I suppose if you are looking at running the car for a relatively short time (say 2 to 4 years from new), then you are probably right. I'm still smarting at the bills our diesel Volvo has run up in the last 2 years (about £3.5k) for injectors, glow plugs, fuel pump, turbo intercooler.

It is 10 years old though and got 115k on the clock, but makes me very nervous of buying a diesel out of warranty - and they have got more complicated since then (ours has no DPF or EGR or DMF...)
 

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I suppose if you are looking at running the car for a relatively short time (say 2 to 4 years from new), then you are probably right. I'm still smarting at the bills our diesel Volvo has run up in the last 2 years (about £3.5k) for injectors, glow plugs, fuel pump, turbo intercooler.

It is 10 years old though and got 115k on the clock, but makes me very nervous of buying a diesel out of warranty - and they have got more complicated since then (ours has no DPF or EGR or DMF...)

Smug hat on! My Hyundai Tucson Diesel is nearly 10 years old, and has cost me one suspension bush.

Bloody Korean crap!!:lol::lol:

Sorry, please be forgiving me.:) I read this stuff all the time from various sources, I aint yet fathomed out why people cant see it? Korean crap, 5-7 years warranty, engines that go on and on and on........ I believe they are good because they are designed to operate reliably in the harshest environments in the world, not just Kensington High Street. To offer those kinds of warranties on your products you gotta be very confident in your product, and be fair gentlemen, the proof of the pudding has been well sampled.:)

Sorry, I will bugger orf now.

ATB, Ray.
 

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The Twingo was designed with electrification in mind, but it was chopped after the failure of the company's previous models (Twizy, Fluence flopped, and even the Nissan Leaf is only bobbing along).

I guess the plan was petrol for cost-conscious buyers, and electric for people looking for low emissions. Also, I'm not sure Renault-Nissan have a small enough diesel engine..

Biggest problem with small electric cars is that those buyers who are concerned enough about lower running costs to consider electric cars are exactly the ones who will compare lifetime costs of a second-hand small petrol engined car against a new electric one.
Could it be because its from the same stable as the new Smart ?
 

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Smug hat on! My Hyundai Tucson Diesel is nearly 10 years old, and has cost me one suspension bush.

Bloody Korean crap!!:lol::lol:

Sorry, please be forgiving me.:) I read this stuff all the time from various sources, I aint yet fathomed out why people cant see it? Korean crap, 5-7 years warranty, engines that go on and on and on........ I believe they are good because they are designed to operate reliably in the harshest environments in the world, not just Kensington High Street. To offer those kinds of warranties on your products you gotta be very confident in your product, and be fair gentlemen, the proof of the pudding has been well sampled.:)

Sorry, I will bugger orf now.

ATB, Ray.
Here what you are saying...

On reflection and recalculation, our Volvo cost next to nothing for 10 years and in the last 2 years just over £3k....(sorry it is actually 12 years old - 03 plate!), so you may have a whole world of pain in the next 2 years...hoping not though of course.... I see it as its mid life crisis, and will now soldier on for another 10 years....
 

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Here what you are saying...

On reflection and recalculation, our Volvo cost next to nothing for 10 years and in the last 2 years just over £3k....(sorry it is actually 12 years old - 03 plate!), so you may have a whole world of pain in the next 2 years...hoping not though of course.... I see it as its mid life crisis, and will now soldier on for another 10 years....
Sorry but an 03 plate, ie March 2003 to August 2003, can only be eleven years old since we are currently in July 2014
 

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:eek: maths never my strong point......
 

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Smug hat on! My Hyundai Tucson Diesel is nearly 10 years old, and has cost me one suspension bush.

Bloody Korean crap!!:lol::lol:

Sorry, please be forgiving me.:) I read this stuff all the time from various sources, I aint yet fathomed out why people cant see it? Korean crap, 5-7 years warranty, engines that go on and on and on........ I believe they are good because they are designed to operate reliably in the harshest environments in the world, not just Kensington High Street. To offer those kinds of warranties on your products you gotta be very confident in your product, and be fair gentlemen, the proof of the pudding has been well sampled.:)

Sorry, I will bugger orf now.

ATB, Ray.
The average Korean car owner wouldn't notice if the wheels are still attached.
 
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