[Turtle4288]

Hello, know its been covered a million times but originally this was a PM written out to Seadart, who has kindly send me a pair of trailing arm (spring pan) inboard side bushes. Legend! :thumbs:

I thought I'd open up the discussion to others who might add value to the discussion.

The story so far is simple: my car just ticked over 90000 miles and theres little history of the rear suspension being seen to. Both trailing arms (spring pans) were replaced in 2002 (at a parts cost of £162). That is all.

A key issue here is: I enjoy the handling of my car! I've described it before as "funky" (low speed oversteer, but nothing out of the ordinary). Most importantly, the ride over bumps is comfortable.

Now, this years MOT advisory said:
- Both nearside and offside rear suspension arm rubber bush deteriorated but not resulting in excessive movement
- Offside rear upper suspension arm has slight play in a ball joint (I assume this is not a polyflexible part?)

So, to kick start the thread: which bushes should I change to prevent subframe death? I am guessing numbers 5 and 6 are critical to subframe health?

I'm reluctant to replace them all since:
a) I'm skint
b) car handles fine, don't want to do anything extreme

I'm interested in the "improved" suspension joints that the V6 uses... can these be fitted to a TS?

Sorry this is a bit of a ramble... thanks guys!! :thumbs:

p.s. a £17 front wishbone was fitted 3 years ago and just wore out this year so I recommend not spending that little... but this has been said before!

 

[Pud237]

3, 4, 5, 6 & 7 - two of each bush required:

http://www.autolusso.co.uk/performance/powerflex-bushes.html

Check 8 for play - unlikely unless you have been driving on knackered suspension for quite some time in my experience. Also on the end of the arm that the '8' bushes are pressed into, there is a balljoint. This is seperately replaceable.

 

[Turtle4288]

OK thanks, but 3 and 7 are only attached to the hub... so they won't cause any damage if not replaced? I will check them for wear of course, but I don't want to do the whole lot really...

 

[pkr]

If everything else is OK, 5 & 6 are the ones to concentrate on to avoid subframe damage.

 

[Pud237]

Yes 3 & 7 are only attached to the hub, 4 is only attached to the bottom of the shock.

 

[SimonT]

Off topic but 3 yrs ain't bad for front wishbones. Both of mine have been replaced twice and each time only lasted about 26k miles. Alfa originals too ...

 

[seadart]

If you're totally potless just change the ones I sent you.. 6.. inner spring pan.. there's a twisting moment on the spring pan arm and they are the most likely to do damage.. and check 5.. most likely the ones the mot test picked up..

I had ball joints on my car but found them too hard and crashy for road use.. so now have powerflex all round..

The upper arm ball joint is not a polybush.. its a bit like a track rod end.. expensive at about 35 40 quid I believe.. if you can find one..

 

[Turtle4288]

Thanks everyone... I will try to take some photos on the job next week and report back!

 

[Baacow]

Lot's on this site about Powerflexing ...but correct me if I'm wrong, but 3,4,5,6&7 are Rose Joints aren't they? Why replace rose joints with any kind of bush, even Poly ones?
that's going in the wrong direction for improving a chassis. A change from rubber to Poly is an improvement, but not RJ's to Poly?

 

[pkr]

Lot's on this site about Powerflexing ...but correct me if I'm wrong, but 3,4,5,6&7 are Rose Joints aren't they? Why replace rose joints with any kind of bush, even Poly ones?
that's going in the wrong direction for improving a chassis. A change from rubber to Poly is an improvement, but not RJ's to Poly?

Although people refer to them as 'rose joints', they aren't. They're actually spherical bearings ( mostly ). And the reason people use powerflex? Springarms are £400 per side, and no one has yet worked out what spherical joint can be used on the inner end of the springarm ( the outer is a Mercedes unit ) to replace the ones that have worn out.

'Mostly', refers to phase 1 twinsparks which don't even have spherical bearings on the inner springarm. They're simple rubber bushes.

 

[Baacow]

These...?

Alfa Romeo Spider Bushes

http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_GTV_Spider_wishbone_bush_replacement_guide.shtml

press out, press in - Job done. back to original spec.

I accept they are not true rose joints, as they do not have adjustment threads on them, but my point is that they more stiff and accurate than any poly bush. Unless you are looking for a more wobbly chassis of course? (comfort)

In Edit....and Alfashop have confirmed those are the same bushes in the rear swing arm (dog leg)

 

[pkr]

I'd forgotten about those. Still more expensive and more hassle than powerflex though.

 

[Mitch916]

And there are no metal bushes available for the rear arms.

Baacow, do a search mate, there are lots of threads, opinions on this subject, but the consensus of opion is, Powerflex is the best way to go.

 

[seadart]

There seems to be a lot of heresay ref. powerfex vs. spherical bearings.. one of which is that 'powerfexing' negates the passive rear wheel steering..
Both lower arms move through different arcs.. therefore the upright must twist in the vertical plane to allow this.. (passive steering)
If 'powerflexing' were to somehow not allow this twisting to occur the suspension arms would not be able to move up and down..
In other words 'powerflexed' suspension would lock solid..

I would say that the reason Alfa chose spherical bearings was that rubber was simply not up to the job.. and at the time.. 1994ish.. polybushes were at an early stage of development combined with supply issues..

 

[Spider95]

These...?

Alfa Romeo Spider Bushes

Spring pan bush replacement

press out, press in - Job done. back to original spec.

I accept they are not true rose joints, as they do not have adjustment threads on them, but my point is that they more stiff and accurate than any poly bush. Unless you are looking for a more wobbly chassis of course? (comfort)

In Edit....and Alfashop have confirmed those are the same bushes in the rear swing arm (dog leg)

I can state categorically that powerflex bushes do not lead to a 'wobbly chassis'.

Mind you, if you live in Swansea, you must be used to everything wobbling........

 

[CrispDust]

Just do em all mate, as you've got it stipped down to do the odd one. Saves the hassle of doing the rest later.
I'm still not convinced of the "engineering" superiority of powerflex BUT I think they will last a damn sight longer than the spherical bushes which unfortunately tend to use a perishable easily worn plastic insert instead of hard wearing phosphor bronze.
Or you can do like Ken did on 166 section and make up your own spherical bearings from stock phospor bronze bearings and self machined parts to enclose.....
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-164-and-166/77657-166-rear-suspension-bushes.html

 

[seadart]

Just do em all mate, as you've got it stipped down to do the odd one. Saves the hassle of doing the rest later.

He's a student...skint... big beer bill.. changes sparkplugs one at a time.. secondhand..

and that's why he drives a cheap car..
Whoops!! that's the other thread...

 

[seadart]

CrispDust.. I think they will last a damn sight longer than the spherical bushes which unfortunately tend to use a perishable easily worn plastic insert instead of hard wearing phosphor bronze.

I couldn't believe it when I ripped a spherical bearing apart and found a lump of plastic inside..

 

[Turtle4288]

Took out the swinging arm... condition: perfectly good in all areas.

Spring pan was pretty rusted and worse-for-wear so I cleaned everything up and gave it some hammerite.

Top arm bushes are a bit shagged, so I might actually change those!!

 

[Baacow]

And there are no metal bushes available for the rear arms.

Yeah those spring pan bushes are same as those in the swing arm/dog leg arm call it what you will.

Baacow, do a search mate, there are lots of threads, opinions on this subject, but the consensus of opion is, Powerflex is the best way to go.

I've had a good read around over the last few weeks, can't say I've read it all as this seems to be the highest posted issue (apart from airbag lights of course!:lol.

I suspect there are many factors, some opposing, these following seem to be the main ones.
So Is it "the best way to go" for reasons of:

COST?(PB or Spherical)
EASE OF FITTING ?(PB or Spherical)
HANDLING/TRACTION ?(PB or Spherical)
LONGEVITY ?(PB or Spherical)

Poly vs pressing out and replacing spherical... would someone like to delete where applicable in the above?
Bear in mind you've got to get the old spherical bushes out in both cases anyway, so little to be gained in time/labour in using PB's