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'21 Giulia Q
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
And it is probably for the MY21 and maybe MY20 Giulia Quads.

Wheel Tire Car Automotive parking light Vehicle


I'm no good at German so here is the google translate version:
2022 QUADRIFOGLIO. This Giulia is brand new, equipped with an AKRAPOVIC exhaust system and came to us to get VDAO and VRAO as well as suspension springs. Surprisingly, this morning we got the order expanded to apply a Stage 1 to it. The background was a previous test drive with a 2018 Giulia, which ultimately sealed the purchase decision. He was also persuaded to go to Akrapovic. When the vehicle was delivered last week, both in terms of sound and performance, the disappointment was great. We were also surprised at how incredibly quiet the car is now. The flap open now sounds like the 2018er with the flap closed. It got more terrible during the initial measurement. The car had just 477HP and 622Nm while the pre-final tends to spread upwards and we measured 515-530HP and 650Nm. Even after several attempts, we did not succeed in achieving our standard results. This version results with the AKRAPOVIC system with a meager 570PS and 670Nm. Measurements were taken at 11-16 ° C with an AIT of max. 66 ° C. This is due to the unbelievable heat on the ESD, where there are still 600 ° C in some cases. And that doesn't sound like anything. The customer will sell the AKRAPOVIC and get a MONSTERexhaust. Then we'll show you the difference.

To meet the emission regulations, the power reduction to the nominal level (as those were spectacularly above the nominal value for the non-Q versions) is a standard procedure. However ~480 hp instead of 510 is a big miss. I don't have direct experience wit the previous model years and several of you have mentioned here that the powertrain is as good as it was before. For the loudness of the exhaust, we know it is getting quieter year by year but that's a different matter. If the power does not meet the technical specifications, that is something the manufacturer can face legal consequences for. So, I'm a bit skeptic about that, but I'm curious what are your thoughts.
Also I have not found any video or infos about MY20+ Giulia Q-s on dyno which could take us closer to the truth. Does someone have this kind of information?
 

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Interesting.....I don't think many people would have put the MY20+ Quads on dynos yet. Perhaps Celtic Tuning who have a lot of experience with tuning the pre MY20 Quads will be best placed to measure the newer engines. The main thing to note is the power drop (and sound reduction) is primarily due to the presence of GPF integrated into the catalytic converter on both banks. Even if they fit the Monster exhaust, they may have some sound improvement but they need to replaced the GPF/Cats with high flow 200 cell sports cats to gain original power. Also, the power measurement they are quoting is crank HP which is an extrapolated version accounting for some 'standardised estimated' drivetrain losses (usually about 10 to 15% to 2 wheel drive), so you really need to put the pre GPF and post GPF engines on the same exact dyno under similar atmospheric conditions for a comparable result. Celtic or Squadra Tuning would be best placed for that. Even if power is lower on the newer engines, it will be difficult to prove this to Alfa without detailed dyno runs comparing pre and post cars simultaneously. It is not impossible, just time consuming and difficult. Another way to measure power is to log boost pressures and 'mass air flow' on a single gear (usually 4th or 5th) run, using Multiecuscan or similar OBD software. Lower powered engine will drop boost, ignition timing and airflow towards the higher rpm where peak power is produced. 1/4 mile timing using Dragy will also show a time penalty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Interesting.....I don't think many people would have put the MY20+ Quads on dynos yet. Perhaps Celtic Tuning who have a lot of experience with tuning the pre MY20 Quads will be best placed to measure the newer engines. The main thing to note is the power drop (and sound reduction) is primarily due to the presence of GPF integrated into the catalytic converter on both banks. Even if they fit the Monster exhaust, they may have some sound improvement but they need to replaced the GPF/Cats with high flow 200 cell sports cats to gain original power. Also, the power measurement they are quoting is crank HP which is an extrapolated version accounting for some 'standardised estimated' drivetrain losses (usually about 10 to 15% to 2 wheel drive), so you really need to put the pre GPF and post GPF engines on the same exact dyno under similar atmospheric conditions for a comparable result. Celtic or Squadra Tuning would be best placed for that. Even if power is lower on the newer engines, it will be difficult to prove this to Alfa without detailed dyno runs comparing pre and post cars simultaneously. It is not impossible, just time consuming and difficult. Another way to measure power is to log boost pressures and 'mass air flow' on a single gear (usually 4th or 5th) run, using Multiecuscan or similar OBD software. Lower powered engine will drop boost, ignition timing and airflow towards the higher rpm where peak power is produced. 1/4 mile timing using Dragy will also show a time penalty.
You would not need to prove that the newer engines are lower on power. All you'd need to prove that they do not perform 510 hp, if that's the case. Because that's the tech. spec. No need for difficult comparisons, just a calibrated dyno, I think. Anyway, I'd like to see credible dyno runs for the newer models.
 

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You could have ten calibrated DYNOs....if they are a different type or they use different correction formulas to estimate transmission loses you will get a different figure. As MG says to prove anything you need to old model and the new model on the dyno in the same conditions one after another on the same day to see how much less power one makes than the other.....anything else proves nothing. Does anyone even know how ALFA got those figures. I bet it was on a test bed and not actually in a car....that's the only accurate way of getting accurate crank horse power.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You could have ten calibrated DYNOs....if they are a different type or they use different correction formulas to estimate transmission loses you will get a different figure. As MG says to prove anything you need to old model and the new model on the dyno in the same conditions one after another on the same day to see how much less power one makes than the other.....anything else proves nothing. Does anyone even know how ALFA got those figures. I bet it was on a test bed and not actually in a car....that's the only accurate way of getting accurate crank horse power.
Ok, from a legal point of view, most probably it would not be so simple to prove the lack of some power. But I guess you could draw conclusions from several correlating results on different dynos showing consequently lower power - below 510 hp - for the newer quads. I guess dynos does not work with 10-15% deviations which would mean 50+ hp for a Quad.
 

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Does anyone even know how ALFA got those figures. I bet it was on a test bed and not actually in a car....that's the only accurate way of getting accurate crank horse power.
Absolutely yes, all manufacturers quote CRANK Horsepower, which is measured using an Engine Dyno in a calibrated test facility under controlled test conditions which takes out chassis and rolling losses out the equation. This is also used for emissions and homologation purposes. It is only the aftermarket that is concerned with rolling road dynos, manufacturers don't care much for these measurements and you will have difficult time questioning them. They could simply argue that the drive train losses are a higher % or the measurement is inaccurate and the engine still produces 510hp at the crank. The only sure way to prove it is back to back comparisons of the pre and post GPF models under identical conditions which then is a 'relative' measurement and the %loss in power is a clearer comparison than 'absolute' numbers which become a bit irrelevant. It is harder for them to explain why one produces say 10% less power than the other under controlled identical conditions. Now if anyone has the time and tenacity to go for this, then there is a possibility to challenge them. Having said all that, it could be just a measurement error. The Giulia is very hard to dyno test in anything but Race mode and even then you need to know what you are doing. I have tried, I know.
 

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Giulia Quadrifoglio Feb 2017 Alfa Rosso, Fiat 500e Apr 2021
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This thread and the ones relating to the revisions to the steering geometry changes since the first Quadrifoglio's were made, make me question the wisdom of replacing my 2017 Quadrifoglio at 47,000 miles with a MY22 one.

There is evidence that I've got a better car than the versions coming out soon?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
This thread and the ones relating to the revisions to the steering geometry changes since the first Quadrifoglio's were made, make me question the wisdom of replacing my 2017 Quadrifoglio at 47,000 miles with a MY22 one.

There is evidence that I've got a better car than the versions coming out soon?
I had no intention with this thread to make others feel this way. I just like to see clear and there is a great wisdom in this community, so I ask.
Of course the voice of the grumblers are always louder, but I know several people who are happy with their new Quad, even if they had the prev model years. Let's see it yourself, before you make a judgement :)
When do you expect your new car?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Could the power difference be because the car is new and not been run in yet?I've heard that after 1000 or so miles it starts to release more power....or is that a load of horse 💩
I'm not sure, but all-in-all MG, and alfaitalia is right that one dyno run does not prove anything. It is good for a before-after measurement of power in case of performance upgrade. It can show the ratio of the prev and actual power, but nothing else, really...
 

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2021 Giulia Quadrifoglio (2017 previous), 2001 916 V6 Spider 24V, 1966 Giulia Sprint GT Veloce (TS)
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My MY21 Felt like it had a slightly different power delivery to my 2017, but if anything I felt the MY21 felt as quick or quicker once run in.

It was almost like more torque in the mid range, less top end fizz, and slightly slower to boost but stronger when on mid range boost.

And yes as everyone knows i hated the new steering etc :LOL:

But the engine wasn't a complaint, still felt great just slightly different.
 

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Don't know if the Quad is the same, but my Veloce suddenly kicked me in the arse after about 1000 miles. Took me quite by surprise when it happened. They definitely have a low power running in setting in software.
 

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@HussarF: If you can, you should do a 100-200 km/h run in Race mode on a level ground, using GPS based app, and report back to us. If it has 510 hp it should do it in around 8.6 seconds. AutotopNL Youtube channel measured it at 8.54. I did a run in damp conditions the other day with my 2018 and it did 8.8. We'll see what it can do after I get my ECUs back from Squadra Tuning.

 

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Dragy is the best to measure but there are others.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
@HussarF: If you can, you should do a 100-200 km/h run in Race mode on a level ground, using GPS based app, and report back to us. If it has 510 hp it should do it in around 8.6 seconds. AutotopNL Youtube channel measured it at 8.54. I did a run in damp conditions the other day with my 2018 and it did 8.8. We'll see what it can do after I get my ECUs back from Squadra Tuning.

This is a good idea. But I think I should wait till spring, because it can loose traction for a full throttle even around 100 kph.

The Quadrifoglios have built-in accelerometer which can log the 100-200 time too. It is probably saving the data from the speed-o-meter of the car, but I think if I add 0,2 sec to its result, I get more or less the real data...
 

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Don't know if the Quad is the same, but my Veloce suddenly kicked me in the arse after about 1000 miles. Took me quite by surprise when it happened. They definitely have a low power running in setting in software.
So weirdly I've just exceeded 1000 miles in my QV, and taking it out this evening it's seemed quite a lot more torquey.

Could be purely in my mind, but it really does seem smoother and keener to pull from lower rpms and felt like it had noticeably more mid range shove.

I'll try out out in D on the commute tomorrow dispatching dawdlers and see if it feels any different :sneaky:
 
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