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Discussion starter · #81 · (Edited)
I'm aware of the slight straight-ahead haziness to steering on the 147, but I don't find it a problem. It's a razor blade compared to most cars.
Which isn't to say it can't be substantially improved. I've found the difference between the steering action and feel with bushed tie-rods vs debushed to be quite considerable, probably quite a lot more than you expect if you haven't experienced it. IMO the rubberised tie-rods are in effect 'pre worn out'.

I have to say that I don't find the steering to be remotely 'razor' like with stock tie-rods. It is better than many other cars, though I suspect only due to the 'fast' steering ratio (the full effect of which I think is significantly diminished by the effect of the rubber in the tie-rods). With this eliminated, the steering is far more precise and 'instant', with a more tactile interaction between driver and steering.

Quite a few Porsche enthusiasts say similar things after the rubber is deleted from their tie-rods (ie. the rubber infested tie-rods swapped out for proper tie-rods), This seems widely recognised as an almost essential modification to earlier model Porsches, and some later models. The problem may well be substantially worse with 147, 156 and GT Alfas, given the hugely front heavy weight distribution, compared to rear engined Porsches with a comparatively very light front weight. The greater the weight on the front wheels the greater loading will be imparted into the tie-rods, so any rubber in the bushes will be more heavily distorted under the greater compressive and tensile loads caused by the heavier front ends...

I think it would be interesting to compare steering action / feel between the 147 / 156 / GT (with standard rubbery tie-rods) and that of the GTV / Spider (which I understand has standard 'solid' tie-rods?). The steering ratios are quite similarly 'fast', the front end weight is probably similarish (engine for engine), the caster / KPI / SR etc are probably not much different. I would expect the GTV / Spider to have the superior steering action, feel, response etc., due to having superior the tie-rods (ie. 'solid', not rubbery). I can't say with any authority as I've never driven a GTV / Spider, but does this fit or not with the experience of anyone in a position to make the comparison?

Regards,
John.
 
Discussion starter · #82 ·
I had looked and it seemed fine.
The operative word here is "seemed". The thing is, the 'standard' cursory steering joint check (lightly wiggling each jacked up front wheel manually) will easily detect worn hard joints (ie. rack ends and tie-rod-ends), but it won't readily detect significant uncontrolled movement and geometry changes permitted by any rubber bushes in the tie-rods.

Only if you push and pull quite hard on the road wheel while performing the steering joint check will the tie-rod bushes deflect to a detectable degree, but this movement tends to get lost when the entire rack shaft moves laterally due to sidewall and tread deflection in the still loaded tyre on the other side of the car (ie. the 'other' tyre is usually still carrying substantial weight when the steering joint check is performed, only one wheel jacked).

In other words, the typical fairly casual check for worn steering components is not very useful for determining how much deflection may occur in rubber tie-rod bushes...

Regards,
John.
 
The operative word here is "seemed". ....

In other words, the typical fairly casual check for worn steering components is not very useful for determining how much deflection may occur in rubber tie-rod bushes...

Regards,
John.
Sure. I was only looking for wear in the rack end balljoint which had got me an advisory. I didn't find any, nor did the same (picky) tester a year later. I understand this is a separate issue from rubber. I only mentioned it as a reason why I might replace the rack ends, and if/when I did, I'd try solid if I could find any that would fit. EG the Australian Protex RE1082 218mm type you mentioned.

I then thought 'mmm, if Protex make solid inner ends that will fit 147 etc, maybe someone else does too?'

It appears RP Sa (huge Spanish mfr) do, with the RP 92-05814 listed as 207.5mm and compatible with 147 and most 156 (GT not mentioned). However they don't give the AR OEM part number. This is from their own catalogue at Catalogue (you'll have to look it up, no direct URL is possible).

There is also the Kamoka 9020053 which is listed as equivalent to ALFA ROMEO 9947923, despite being only 204mm.

So then I had a bit of a dig around the internet, and found about 15 mfrs who list their inner track rod ends as equivalent to AR 9947923 - although all but these three have the rubber damper inserts. But the odd thing is that although many are 217mm or 218mm, lengths range from 203mm to 219mm. None of these appear to be the shorter GTA parts (~183mm). I wonder if some mfrs just allow a shorter threaded section for the outer track rod end. Or internet cataloguing is up the spout and unreliable... Obviously any swaps will require more research and a lot of caveat emptor.
 
Discussion starter · #84 · (Edited)
The standard 219mm (as measured end to end) tie-rod enagages the rod-end with about 15 thread rotations. With a 1.5mm thread pitch this equates to 22.5mm of thread engagement. Rule of thumb for minimum engagement in a tapped hole is; diameter of fastener X 1, so with a 14mm rod diameter there needs to be at least 14mm engagement (9.3 rotations). This means that in theory a substitute rod could be up to 8.5mm shorter (219mm - 8.5mm = 210.5) while still providing a 14mm mimimum of thread engagement.

However, we need to assume that the 'standard' engagement (with a 219mm tie-rod) could possibly be somewhat less than the nominal 22.5mm (not quite as many as 15 thread rotations), so maybe a 5mm shorter tie-rod is closer to what may be a reasonably safe minimum tie-rod length giving an adequate 14mm of thread engagement? Assuminhg this, then 214mm (end to end) might be as short as the tie-rod could reasonably be?

But, some tie-rod lengths as quoted don't seem to be consistent nor relate to anything definite, and appear uncomparable, or are just very wrong. I have no problems with a 217mm rod vs a 219mm rod, these are near enough the same length that it won't be an issue. But, there is no way that a 203mm tie-rod could be used if that quoted dimension is the actual total length from end to end, there just wouldn't be enough thread engagement to be safe (only 6.5mm at most, and maybe a bit less...). This quoted 203mm length must be measured in some arbitrary non intuitive and 'novel' manner...

Regards,
John.
 
That rubber in the tie-rods is to isolate road noise. It is a comfort thing.

I always tought on other cars: why is there no rubber isolator in the tie rod. Well, there uou go: it exists. 😁

I think it should not a problem when those tie rods are in good condition. I drove 156 TS and 147 Q2 with very good feeling in the steering wheel.

AFAIK you can change those tie rods for older version without the build in dampers.
 
99.9% of cars on earth don't have them. Don't know what to think.
If you want to isolate road noise... do it in the way the alignment isn't affected.
Ex. bushings in the rack, or some dampers in the steering column.
But this way the tires will slighly change their alignment independently when running over bumps and such.
I replaced my steering pump just in case, checked every bushing... everything is good but the car loves to follow any crap on the road.
  • Look, a stone! Let me steer a little to indicate where the stone was!
  • Hey, did you notice this road has a light slope to the right? I'll also steer just in case!
I absolutely hate that behavior! Must be these stupid tie rods, what else if not?

Ah, and by no way put Moog parts.
I replaced several suspension parts in the last 5 years. 2 years later some had already fail, worse than the original parts they replaced with 300K miles in them.
Currently some are reaching their end of life. The balljoints at the rear are very soft, can be moved with a finger, there's no play yet but the won't last much longer.
The floating bearings of the rear hub were gone in 2 years, with more play than the old ones, replaced with TRW, still good 4 years later.
The Moog lower front arms also failed quickly, the bushings were showing some cracks after just 2 years.
Finally ran over a trench in the road, the typical canal they dig to pass a water pipeline, then covered with some sand while they don't finish it... after some raining it became a deep trap, you only saw some innocent water, but suddenly all your dental fillings fell off and the car was no longer going straight!
Both sides bushings got 2-3mm free play, left side balljoint was also cooked.
Left arm replaced with Delphi, replaced the bushing in the other one... Strangely, the right balljoint was still tight.

Never Moog again, they use lollipop sticks for the balljoints and chewing gum for the bushings!
 
Discussion starter · #87 · (Edited)
So, if a tie-rod that is 219mm in total from 'end to end' is not measured from end to end, but instead is measured from the outer end only to where the inner thread begins, then that length is 206mm (as I've just measured). This apparently ignores the 13mm length of the inner theaded part which screws into the end of the rack (for whatever reason this portion of total length is being ignored...?).

Using this strange 'method', the quoted length of a standard tie-rod (that has a total end to end length of 219mm) is 206mm. A rod that measures 218mm end to end would be quoted as being 205mm, and a rod that is 217mm end to end would be quoted as being 204mm (etc.). So it would seem that with rod lengths that are quoted as being seemingly quite short, if 13mm is added to the quoted length then that may well be the actual total length from end to end, probably...

Regards,
John.
 
Discussion starter · #88 · (Edited)
That rubber in the tie-rods is to isolate road noise. It is a comfort thing.
The Industry calls it 'N.V.H." (noise, vibration and harshness). The very many measures taken to reduce NVH almost always have a significantly adverse affect on steering and handling precision. Everything is a compromise, most cars are very heavily compromised toward reduced NVH at the expense of driving dynamics, even most Alfas.

If you are a driver who enjoys sharp, communicative, responsive steering and handling, then pretty much any rubbery compliance that exists anywhere in the suspension and steering are your enemy. Rubber suspension bushes have an adverse affect on steering precision and feel, but more or less only indirectly. It's commonly acknowledged that harder suspension bushes typically do improve not only the handling, but also the steering. Tie-rods should be hugely rigid in compression and tension to work properly, so compliant rubber bushes that are located in the tie-rods degrade the steering performance directly, and so have an even more adverse affect on the steering than do overly soft suspension bushes...

I always tought on other cars: why is there no rubber isolator in the tie rod. Well, there uou go: it exists. 😁
Only with a very few other cars, most notably older Porsches (and a few later ones), in which they seem to be commonly recognised as having a very adverse affect on the steering. Porsche is known to have used rubber tie-rod bushes on some of their later model cars, as part of measures taken to try and appeal to people who wanted to be seen to own a Porsche, but didn't really want to drive a car that drove like a Porsche (ie. wankers...).

Many other cars do have rubber steering isolators, in the form of the rack housing being mounted in rubber bushes rather than directly to the chassis or subframe. At least this form of isolation does not allow the toe and steered angle of each individual front wheel to randomly change independantly to the other front wheel. It does permit some steered angle change to occur in unison side to side (itself not desirable for precise and responsive steering, but less bad than each wheel being independantly 'loose'...). It is a common modification with many makes of car to replace such softly compliant steering housing bushes with far stiffer bushes, to significantly improve steering precision, feel, etc.

I think it should not a problem when those tie rods are in good condition. I drove 156 TS and 147 Q2 with very good feeling in the steering wheel.
The 147 tie-rod bushes I have examined (two pairs) at least looked to be in excellent as new condition, with no cracks or other signs of degredation (this with two pairs, so in all four bushes looking to be equally in perfect condition). All four rod bushes exhibited more or less equal deflection when experimentally tested (placing the rods under a compressive force). I very much doubt that the rubber had siginficantly softened (or hardened...) since they were new, though I can't completely rule out some change.

Note that these bushes have a pretty easy life. They exist in a sealed environment and are well protected from things that would degrade the rubber. The rubber isn't exposed to water, oil, light or high temperatures. The structure of the metal parts (of the bush) limit how far the rubber can deform in use (though easily enough to badly affect the steering, it doesn't take much...). Nor do they exist in an oxygen rich environment; due to being hugely reactive any O2 originally entrapped inside the rack bellows (etc) will be fairly rapidly absorbed by far more plentiful other materials and not readily replenished, so oxygen degredation would be minimal at most.

Without having ever driven a given car back to back, both with and without these nasty rubber rod inserts, then it isn't possible to judge how much they do adversely affect the steering and handling in pretty much every aspect. It is worse than you think probable...

Regards,
John.
 
So, if a tie-rod that is 219mm in total from 'end to end' is not measured from end to end, but instead is measured from the outer end only to where the inner thread begins, then that length is 206mm (as I've just measured). This apparently ignores the 13mm length of the inner theaded part which screws into the end of the rack (for whatever reason this portion of total length is being ignored...?).

Using this strange 'method', the quoted length of a standard tie-rod (that has a total end to end length of 219mm) is 206mm. A rod that measures 218mm end to end would be quoted as being 205mm, and a rod that is 217mm end to end would be quoted as being 203mm. So it would seem that with rod lengths that are quoted as being seemingly quite short, if 13mm is added to the quoted length then that may well be the actual total length from end to end, probably...

Regards,
John.
The part that goes in the rack is not of interrest for comparing with others. That's all.
 
So, if a tie-rod that is 219mm in total from 'end to end' is not measured from end to end, but instead is measured from the outer end only to where the inner thread begins, then that length is 206mm (as I've just measured). This apparently ignores the 13mm length of the inner theaded part which screws into the end of the rack (for whatever reason this portion of total length is being ignored...?).

Using this strange 'method', the quoted length of a standard tie-rod (that has a total end to end length of 219mm) is 206mm. A rod that measures 218mm end to end would be quoted as being 205mm, and a rod that is 217mm end to end would be quoted as being 203mm. So it would seem that with rod lengths that are quoted as being seemingly quite short, if 13mm is added to the quoted length then that may well be the actual total length from end to end, probably...

Regards,
John.
Yes, that occurred to me too. That the quoted length is perhaps total component length, for some mfrs, but effective length for others. If so, the mystery largely vanishes. If and when I get around to replacing mine, I'll try and find out from RTS Sa. whether this is why they spec 207.5mm for the 92-8514 they list for 147/156.
 
The plot thickens. It looks like there were plenty of variations on the tie rod theme (surprise!), according to 7Zap (listing for the GT): STEERING GEAR ALFA-ROMEO GT (2003-2010)
O-ring and rigid tie rods. You should perhaps take a look before ordering parts.
Arrgh...! From that it appears some/many 147's also have rigid tie rods too, including my car (2008 RHD 3-door Sport Q2). Steering rack type 11629 under various part numbers

This may be why I think the steering is pretty sharp :) Unfortunately FIAT ePer dives off into parts substitutions for the complete rack, with no details about rack tie rod construction. Nor are tie rods listed separately and I am none the wiser.
 
Discussion starter · #96 · (Edited)
The plot thickens. It looks like there were plenty of variations on the tie rod theme (surprise!), according to 7Zap (listing for the GT): STEERING GEAR ALFA-ROMEO GT (2003-2010)
Casually searching for suitable tie-rods in the usual online marketplace (you know where...) pretty much every ad for 147 / 156 / GT tie-rods is for rods that have been deliberately impaired with what are actually quite soft rubber bushes.

So, unless the buyer happens to be in the know (that some iterations of the OE tie-rods are rigid, but others are unusually 'elastic'), then given what seems to be overwhelmingly offered for sale from many sources as replacement tie-rods for all 147, 156 / and GT, a softly bushed tie-rod is what will typically be ordered and so installed, regardless of what might have been original fitment on a given variant or year model of these cars.

Because half the tie-rod is hidden beneath the rack bellows, only rarely would it be known (prior to purchasing replacement parts) just what type of tie-rod was originally fitted on a particular car (not until the steering was actually being disassembled). But even if the original fitment is known, I think few people are going to be aware that fitting a bushed tie-rod in place of a 'solid' tie-rod will downgrade the steering, let alone know that 'solid' rods are a steering 'upgrade' for cars not originally so fitted...

And then there will be cases where a car ends up with one rigid tie-rod, and one soft tie-rod...

Regards,
John.
 
Discussion starter · #98 · (Edited)
That tie-rod bush looks to be in worse condition than those I found on my car. My steering was hugely improved after 'deleting' these bushes, so I suspect your steering might be improved even more.

A pipe wrench used on the inner tie-rod joints may seem a bit brutal, but it does work (and what I used). The rack shaft should be held and prevented from rotating, otherwise the torque applied to loosen the inner tie-rod joint will be resisted by the pinion, which probably isn't good for it (or the parts which locate it, i.e. the pinion bearings, steering housing etc).

There are two machined 'flats' at the pinion end of the rack shaft (drivers' side) that allow the shaft to be held with a spanner. There are no such flats at the other end of the shaft, so an assistant might be needed to hold the spanner (that prevents the shaft rotating) while the passenger side tie-rod is loosened. Loosening the driver side tie-rod, the person wielding the pipe wrench could probably also hold the spanner (I think, but I did mine off the car which made it fairly easy, certainly access was not a problem).

Note that the flats on the rack shaft are not a standard metric size. A 23.5mm spanner would fit (don't we all have one of those...?), however, there may or may not be be an imperial size that fits more closely than a standard metric spanner (i.e. a better fit than a 24mm spanner). I held my rack shaft in a vise since I was working on it off the car (the delicate smooth surface protected from the vise jaws with soft metal protectors, of course).

Now, to make an equally significant improvement and really sharpen the steering, you might want to also consider getting rid of the very soft 'voided' lower wishbone rear bushes...

Regards,
John.
 
Those bushings with holes are used by the 159, not in the 166, 147,156, GT....these have solid rubber bushes.
Yeah, no surprises if they look terrible, I replaced these with Moog parts some years back while trying to address exactly this issue (Of course I never imagined those rods were made with rubber!), everything from that brand have failed quickly and in a way worse fashion than the original 15-year-old parts they were replacing.
Anyways the whole front suspension was renewed last year, everything should be perfect.
I got the pipe wrench, tomorrow I'm going to beat the crap out of those tie rods no matter what! :LOL:
 
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