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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm getting some vastly different quotes for parts for a replacement clutch for my 2.4 JTD 156 sportwagon. My local alfa specialist is quoting £230 plus VAT (plus fitting), whereas another supplier, WBU Spares (through 247spares) is quoting £120 plus VAT. My local specialist says he is quoting for a Vario clutch kit, and WBU say theirs is the correct part and is a genuine Vario clutch kit.

Does anyone have recent experience of prices for a clutch kit for a 2.4 JTD or any advice on how to tell whether the cheap option is the right thing?

Cheers

Iain
 

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They're not cheap so £120+VAT does seem far too reasonable ... one thing I would recommend is getting an uprated clutch fitted, I don't believe they're much more but will obviously last a lot better (especially if you decide to get a remap ..)
 

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I got an uprated clutch kit of ebay last year for about £145 delivered...it got fitted 3 weeks ago :)lol:) for around £210. I also had the flywheel changed at £210 (approx for part) and Q2 diff at £330 (approx for part). Flywheel and Q2 are optional.
 

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For the mechanically illiterate, can someone explain the relationship between the remap and the possible need for a new clutch?

These prices seem very low... when I asked an indy alfa specialist about this (which is a long range need for me at the mo) they were talking about £600-700 IIRC. What am I missing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Looks like I got the clutch manufacturer name wrong, as it's Valeo, not Vario...doh!

I'm still in two minds about the risk of going for the bargain clutch at £120 plus VAT as against the £230 plus VAT quoted by my tried and trusted alfa specialist. Can anyone help me understand what I need to glean from the parts place to give me confidence that I'm ordering the right Clutch Kit, complete enough for my alfa specialist to fit?

The Valeo UK site lists a clutch kit for the 1.9JTD which is suitable up to the 2.4 10v, but mine is the 20v 175bhp, and there's nothing listed for that. Does that imply that the 175bhp model doesn't use a Valeo clutch?

The parts guy at WBU Parts in Stoke says it's a genuine and new kit from Valeo and is for the 175bhp 2.4 JTD. It sounds like a bargain, but it ain't a bargain if it doesn't fit!

Can anyone help me out here?

Cheers

Iain
 

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Maybe find out the part number and tie that up with the part number from your specialist.
 

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you can buy valeo from the factors for around 120-130quid.

The main dealer told me that the clutch for the 2.4 10v is the same as they fit to the 20v and is good for 200bhp.

Its the torque that kills them, rather than power.

I found that going over 313lb/ft at the WHEELS would put strain on the clutch.

The remaps just tend to highlight a worn out clutch, thats all.

A good mapper will limit the torque at low revs to save the transmission, they are less agressive when the torque is dialled in higher up (over 2500rpm)
 

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Ok. I had my clutch done this year, at a good Independent garage.

Rough costs were. . .

Valeo Clutch kit £110 (from AR)
Gearbox oil £35
Valeo DMF £380 (from local factors - in stock)
7 hours labour - £210

plus the dreaded = £863. This was a great deal cheaper than the other quotes I had, and from a gararge I trust.
 

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A good mapper will limit the torque at low revs to save the transmission, they are less agressive when the torque is dialled in higher up (over 2500rpm)
This makes sense, my remap doesn't make much difference <2k but blasts in straight after. I thought this might be some sort of old skool turbo lag but in the light of what you've said it's probably more of a clutch saver. Well done Red Dot.
 

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I just paid 900 Euros to have the clutch in my 2.4 JTD changed at an independant Alfa guy here in Belgium. Waiting on the invoice but roughly 400 for parts, 400 for labour and 100 for odds and sods

trouble is ... he found a hole in the gearbox, which he said was due to the clutch wear and patched saying it looked OK but is now making noise (2 days / 200 km back on the road)..... back we go
 

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The reason for the two different prices for the clutch kit is that the most expensive one is coming from an Alfa dealer. Valeo make the clutches, you can either buy them from a motorfactor (cheap), or buy them through Alfa Romeo (expensive).
 

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I'd be surprised if this is the case. The 2.4 20v uses a different gearbox/driveshaft setup (a GM one) to the 2.4 10v
Quite true, I don't know the answer, and I wouldn't put my trust in a main dealer.
All I know is the clutch bolts to the DMF which bolts to the engine, and its still the same old alfa engine with a 20valve head.
If anyone knows for sure, it would be great if they post the answer here...
 

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just in case you need them here are the valeo part numbers


97-2003 156 1.9jttd multijet 16v kit 821324 - flywheel 836016
97-2003 156 2.4jtd 10v kit 821324 - flywheel 836016

2003- 156 1.9multijet 16v
1.9 multijet 4wd 16v kit 821324 - flywheel 836016
156 2.4jtd 10v kit 821324 - flywheel 836016
i got these part numbers from a 2008 valeo book i just happen to
have at work :) copied out as per book they do not list anything for a 2.4 jtd 20v
the flywheels are replacement dual mass hopefully you wont need it
just as a reference i spent 15 years as a parts manager for a merc dealer the parts supplied via mercedes as geniuine were identical to aftermarket parts this applied to valeo,bosche,hella, etc only difference was the box probaly just the same for alfa :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Jeff, that's interesting. What you list is consistent with the Valeo website, which lists everything up to the 10v 2.4JTD but not the 2.4JTD 20v. That makes me suspicious that it's different. I've also had it confirmed that there's no added value in getting genuine parts, as Valeo are the suppliers to Alfa who merely rebox them. However, I'm now not convinced that Valeo supply the clutch to Alfa for the 2.4 JTD 20 valve.

Does this indicate further that the 20valve block is from GM, whereas the others are not (and also that perhaps the flywheel is not the same either?)?

Anyone dabbled amongst this on the 20 valve 2.4JTD?
 

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OK, I was going to start a new thread for this but this one's here and active so I'll jack instead...

2 months ago my clutch went. I had just moved house here in Belgium and was desperately looking for a new alfa garage, preferably an independant. My previous (dealer) garage had done a good job maintaining the car but they charged like a wounded bull, refused to communicate with me in English (OK, at least partially my fault, but it's my money fgs) and insisted that I deal with them between 8 and 4 monday to friday (when do you think I work...?)

So, the missus took a walk round the neighbourhood and lo and behold, an alfa garage that's not a dealer ... 500m from our house! must be providence.

I took my ailing car to them and they looked it over and confirmed the clutch needed replacing. The quote was 400 parts + 400 labour (Euros) but they were closing for the summer and couldn't do the job till August. Not a big problem for me, I was off on holidays the next week anyway.

I drove the car for 2 more days (about 250km) until, merging on the Bxl ring road, I punched the accelerator in 4th to see the revs climb, but no speed. I suppose the clutch had given up completely. Gentle on the accelerator I could still get power to the wheels so I coaxed her home. By the time I got there there was a god awful noise coming from under the car in neutral. not grinding but a heavy spinning sort of thing. Bloody hell, but nvm, I think, I'm off on hols soon and my new garage will sort her out in August.

Fast forward to August....

I take the car to them. They fix it. 900 euros all in. The engineer mentions that he found a hole in the gearbox (my french isn't great, I think he meant that the thrust bearing had pushed in so far that oil was able to slop out of the gearbox) and that some oil had leaked out but that it had not been dry. He had patched the hole (nothing on the invoice about this, just new oil) and he said I was lucky.

Next day, in my way in there's a nasty noise coming from the transmission somewhere. Nothing like as loud as the one before the clutch was fixed but a similar spinning transmission sound.

I took it back to the garage and they drove around with me for 10 minutes. Of course, she did not perform for an audience and no sound was apparant. The garage were perfectly nice about it and said of course come in if you've got any concerns, and they checked briefly underneath for any oil but came up dry. I became convinced that I was just being a bit paranoid.

Next day, driving home from work, the same sound is back ... then 5th gear is gone Grinds like it's trying to engage but won't. sh*t, I think, that's that then, straight back to the garage. Traffic ahead and I slow down, shifting into 3rd (at least that was the intention) and boom. crunch. grind. sh*t - clutch - glide onto the shoulder. Now it seems stuck in gear. Gear stick will move but I can't get it into neutral. I call Touring (The AA).

When they pull the car up onto the bed I notice about 1/2 litre of oil under the engine that has metal flecks in it. I'm not a mechanic but I am an engineer and I know that that is not good. Brilliant.

Back at the garage the mechanic confirms a busted gearbox and apologises for sending me out after a major repair like that. He speaks to my wife (I'm back at work and the garage boss only speaks french, mine isn't good enough to discuss cars over the phone) and tells her that a new gear box will be 1700Euro+VAT but that he has a 2nd hand one available with 90k km on it for 500+VAT. The car's only worth about 5-6k so we go with the 2nd hand box.

They offerred to do the work on Saturday but I had a replacement car from Touring so I said don't worry, Tuesday is fine.

Picking the car up and the bill is 1100 Euros (incl VAT). 500 in labour.

Thanks for staying with me this long. here's the punchline...

- Should they have spotted the fact that the box was 2 days from failure when changing the clutch or not?
- Would labour to change clutch and gearbox together be as much as doing it separately (I know the 2.4 is more difficult to work on than the 1.9, I've seen the difference in the enginebay working space for myself)
- Should they have changed the diff at the same time or at least checked it? (I'm worried that the flecks in the oil were from the diff, but don't know)
- How do the rates sound?

I want to trust these guys. Their workshop is immaculate and they constantly have a fleet of out of warranty alfas in for repair and service, which makes me feel at home. They are welcoming and keen and nearby. I just have this feeling that they made a mistake in missing the gearbox and I ended up paying (double labour) for it, but I have an equal feeling that that isn't reasonable. Perhaps one of you lot who actually work on these cars can halp guide me.

Ta
 

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Quite true, I don't know the answer, and I wouldn't put my trust in a main dealer.
All I know is the clutch bolts to the DMF which bolts to the engine, and its still the same old alfa engine with a 20valve head.
If anyone knows for sure, it would be great if they post the answer here...
Does the 20v JTD use the same DMF as the 10v?

Don't forget, the clutch sits between the flywheel and gearbox - it has to mate to both of them, not just the flywheel. So if the 10v clutch doesn't mate to the flywheel, we know the flywheel is different. But even if it does mate to the flywheel, will it mate to the gearbox? Probably not, it is a different gearbox after all.

Thanks Jeff, that's interesting. What you list is consistent with the Valeo website, which lists everything up to the 10v 2.4JTD but not the 2.4JTD 20v. That makes me suspicious that it's different. I've also had it confirmed that there's no added value in getting genuine parts, as Valeo are the suppliers to Alfa who merely rebox them. However, I'm now not convinced that Valeo supply the clutch to Alfa for the 2.4 JTD 20 valve.
Maybe Valeo don't make the clutch for the 20v.. If the DMF is different to the one from the 10v, then the clutch kit will be different. Do Valeo make clutches for GM, or does someone else do it?


Does this indicate further that the 20valve block is from GM, whereas the others are not (and also that perhaps the flywheel is not the same either?)?

Anyone dabbled amongst this on the 20 valve 2.4JTD?
No, the block is the same 10v -> 20v, both 2387cc 5-cyl diesels. The 20v just has a different cylinder head, using 2nd gen common rail technology with multiple injections per cycle. Block is the same, but maybe the flywheel is different. We know the driveshafts and gearbox are different, it is possible the entire transmission is different, ie driveshafts, gearbox, clutch and DMF. Or maybe the DMF is the same as the 10v but the clutch kit has to be different due to the differences on the input side of the gearbox?



What I really wonder, is could you use a DMF from a 10v, clutch from a 10v, gearbox from a 16v and driveshafts from a 16v? Should technically be feasible, you might need to use other 10v parts to get the mounts though (subframe?). Then you could use the Q2 :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi Pud, thanks for the explanations there, that's hit quite a few points I was trying to get at....

I'm gonna look pretty dim here, but here goes anyway....what's a Q2?

Cheers
Iain
 

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Q2 is the limited slip diff you can retro fit to the 5 spds, doesn't fit the 6spd F40 GM gearbox though fitted to the 20v JTD's. The only option with that gearbox is a Quaife diff as far as I can make out which costs £715 ex VAT & fitting. The Q2 can be bought and fitted for around £500.

I'm not sure if the 16v gearbox and driveshafts could cope with the torque that the 20v produces though as Pud suggested. Possible though I suppose.

Cheers,

Mark
 

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Q2 is the limited slip diff you can retro fit to the 5 spds, doesn't fit the 6spd F40 GM gearbox though fitted to the 20v JTD's. The only option with that gearbox is a Quaife diff as far as I can make out which costs £715 ex VAT & fitting. The Q2 can be bought and fitted for around £500.
Q2 limited slip diff only fits the Alfa Romeo V6/JTD gearbox (it is the same box and bell-housing, different ratios are used in different applications, some have 5 forward gears, some have 6)

The Q2 would fit the 156 V6 (6speed), GTA (6speed), 16v JTD (6speed) and 10v JTD (5speed), but not the 20v JTD (6speed GM gearbox).

I'm not sure if the 16v gearbox and driveshafts could cope with the torque that the 20v produces though as Pud suggested. Possible though I suppose.
Seems to be holding up well on a forum member's 147 16v JTDm with 250bhp and 550NM :eek: :wow: :thumbs:

He has Q2 as well :)
 
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