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Discussion Starter #1
I have a 2008 GT (Cloverleaf 170bhp) and I'm experiencing rough starts sometimes will not start unless I give the accelerator a quick tap and then she fires into life and other times it ticks over and over for 4-5 seconds before springing into life.

When running she is absolutly perfect, doesn't miss a beat, power is fantastic, just starting is an issue. (I have only owned this for less than a week so has always had this issue for me)

Reading other posts and issues others were having, I removed the map sensor and gave it a good clean (it was caked!) Put it back in but no change unfortunately.

I had the garage do a bit of work before I bought it so.. Glow plugs changed, EGR taken out - cleaned - put back in, upper and lower turbo hoses changed to silicone.

Any pointers of where to look next? MAF?

P.s. injectors look clean, no leaks. (From the outside, I have not removed them)
 

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How old is your battery?

Mine was having an occasional labored start, but with no other symptoms at all.. Ended up running the battery flat I splashed out on a new one, and the start was immediately better.
 

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Are you turning get key to MAR and waiting till the glow plug symbol goes out.?

If not try this first and then +1 for Battery.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
How old is your battery?

Mine was having an occasional labored start, but with no other symptoms at all.. Ended up running the battery flat I splashed out on a new one, and the start was immediately better.
Are you turning get key to MAR and waiting till the glow plug symbol goes out.?

If not try this first and then +1 for Battery.

Funny you both mention that as the garage that I got the GT from said that the battery in the car was flat so they replaced with one that they had lying around (not new, was taken from old car), I wonder if it is as simple as that, will buy a new one and see if that helps, any recommendations for battery? cheers guys :)

joey, yes I do wait for glow plug light to go out (although I do forget to wait every now and then, must make more effort to remember)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Changed battery, made a marked improvement but still a little hesitation starting. Having the inlet manifold removed, cleaned and de-swirl flapped next week along with EGR blanking. Lets see after that.
 

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Changed battery, made a marked improvement but still a little hesitation starting. Having the inlet manifold removed, cleaned and de-swirl flapped next week along with EGR blanking. Lets see after that.


thing is a diesel engine is a compression ignition engine, if you have compression air and fuel it should fire, so starting problems are normally down to

A) cranking amps , basically banjaxed battery

B) fuel delivery...

C) glow plugs or glow plug unit

D) earth strap or other earthing issue that only comes to light when the possibly weak battery is under load at start before the alternator engages..

E) on the outside ,some kind of intermittent issue with the crank or camshaft position sensor, but seeing as it fires and runs sweetly I am going to say battery..maybe combined with some gunked up inlet manifolds.

just as an aside in the winter when I first bought the car and was used to petrol I would sometimes just key on without turning to MAR first and it would not start ..it's crucial that the glow plugs are working as they should..maybe some new ones are due..?


hope it sorts itself out when you do the flap delete...:thumbup:
 

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Note that glow plugs can fail in strange ways that let the car think that they are still working.

They're meant to heat up the tip - but this can fail and they heat up the body, leaving the tip cold. They're still pulling current, so the car thinks they are OK.

Take them all out, and power them up directly from the battery. Make sure the tip is orange hot. Usual caveats - glowing metal tends to burn flesh if contact happens.
 

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Wouldn't surprise me if it has already ingested a swirl flap or two and has a slight loss of compression, I had a 159 in once which was exactly like that. Once started it ran pretty much fine. I hope this isn't the cause though, best of luck for next week.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Wouldn't surprise me if it has already ingested a swirl flap or two and has a slight loss of compression, I had a 159 in once which was exactly like that. Once started it ran pretty much fine. I hope this isn't the cause though, best of luck for next week.
Oh dear don't scare me!! It's done 150k and it's my mission to get this beautiful GT to "better than factory" condition, this will hit the wallet if so! The manifold is full of crud hence me rushing it to be cleaned!



Also are they the correct glow plugs?

IIRC this engine should have the longer 156.5mm plugs, but many people find that the shorter alternatives have been fitted in error.

Blatant plug (
) I know, but I've got some surplus Beru plugs for sale and OldSmokey found they made a real difference:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa...er/974650-beru-gn069-glow-plugs-for-sale.html
Note that glow plugs can fail in strange ways that let the car think that they are still working.

They're meant to heat up the tip - but this can fail and they heat up the body, leaving the tip cold. They're still pulling current, so the car thinks they are OK.

Take them all out, and power them up directly from the battery. Make sure the tip is orange hot. Usual caveats - glowing metal tends to burn flesh if contact happens.
Glow plugs were changed by the garage on the day of sale as ECU reported glow plug failure. So would have thought they are OK.


Changed battery, made a marked improvement but still a little hesitation starting. Having the inlet manifold removed, cleaned and de-swirl flapped next week along with EGR blanking. Lets see after that.


thing is a diesel engine is a compression ignition engine, if you have compression air and fuel it should fire, so starting problems are normally down to

A) cranking amps , basically banjaxed battery

B) fuel delivery...

C) glow plugs or glow plug unit

D) earth strap or other earthing issue that only comes to light when the possibly weak battery is under load at start before the alternator engages..

E) on the outside ,some kind of intermittent issue with the crank or camshaft position sensor, but seeing as it fires and runs sweetly I am going to say battery..maybe combined with some gunked up inlet manifolds.

just as an aside in the winter when I first bought the car and was used to petrol I would sometimes just key on without turning to MAR first and it would not start ..it's crucial that the glow plugs are working as they should..maybe some new ones are due..?


hope it sorts itself out when you do the flap delete...
Strange you mention earth strap, I am having an auto electrician come out next week also as the head unit (Bose) just does not seem to output any sound from the speakers, have replaced the Bose amp with 3 identical models and 2 different head units still no joy! All seems to work OK (except sound) tested with multimeter and amp remote is showing 12v, power for amp is showing 12v, 5v coming from line outs etc so by all means should work (all tested from amp end). Auto electrician said it sounds like an earthing issue, so let's see. Also changed battery for exide premium with 640CCA, higher than the 480 that was in there.

As always, appreciate all your feedback guys, this is one of the reasons (among many others) that I love Alfa, cars are fantastic but so is the community! :)
 

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Glow plugs were changed by the garage on the day of sale as ECU reported glow plug failure. So would have thought they are OK.
No harm in taking one out to check. When I changed mine I found that the condition of the plugs was fine, but they were the wrong length. Swapped round for the correct length and the difference when starting was like night and day.

Depending on which supplier's list the garage uses they may well have put in the "specified" type, but that can still be wrong. Loads of parts shops online list the shorter plugs instead of the longer ones, plus they may only see the few quid difference and go for the cheaper without realising there's a difference in spec.

Quick spray of wd40 at the base of the plug, use it as normal, then unscrew when engine is warm. Maximum 5 minutes if you've got a long 9mm socket handy.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Glow plugs were changed by the garage on the day of sale as ECU reported glow plug failure. So would have thought they are OK.
No harm in taking one out to check. When I changed mine I found that the condition of the plugs was fine, but they were the wrong length. Swapped round for the correct length and the difference when starting was like night and day.

Depending on which supplier's list the garage uses they may well have put in the "specified" type, but that can still be wrong. Loads of parts shops online list the shorter plugs instead of the longer ones, plus they may only see the few quid difference and go for the cheaper without realising there's a difference in spec.

Quick spray of wd40 at the base of the plug, use it as normal, then unscrew when engine is warm. Maximum 5 minutes if you've got a long 9mm socket handy.

Very good point, right you are, I'll whip one out and have a look. If they are the short ones I'll change them. :)
 

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Are you turning get key to MAR and waiting till the glow plug symbol goes out.?

If not try this first and then +1 for Battery.
Common rail diesels dont really use the glow plugs unless its really cold, like -5 or lower, so it should start even without them. I ve never waited for them to go out on a common rail diesel.

Glow plugs were changed by the garage on the day of sale as ECU reported glow plug failure. So would have thought they are OK.

Strange you mention earth strap, I am having an auto electrician come out next week also as the head unit (Bose) just does not seem to output any sound from the speakers, have replaced the Bose amp with 3 identical models and 2 different head units still no joy! All seems to work OK (except sound) tested with multimeter and amp remote is showing 12v, power for amp is showing 12v, 5v coming from line outs etc so by all means should work (all tested from amp end). Auto electrician said it sounds like an earthing issue, so let's see. Also changed battery for exide premium with 640CCA, higher than the 480 that was in there.
Its common for these engines to report glow plug failure when in reality its actually the glow plug relay, although it is possible the plugs are knackered with 150,00 on the clock. The starting could be down to the plugs not being seated properly or something leaving a small gap and letting air in, I wouldnt have thought it would be a plug issue for starting for the reason I mentioned above.

I m sure you know already but the headunits are the same in Bose and non Bose models, theres an earth strap that comes off the Bose loom in the boot area, have you checked its connected ? Checked the Bose fuses in the fuse box ? (I m sure youve tried that).
 

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Strange you mention earth strap, I am having an auto electrician come out next week also as the head unit (Bose) just does not seem to output any sound from the speakers, have replaced the Bose amp with 3 identical models and 2 different head units still no joy! All seems to work OK (except sound) tested with multimeter and amp remote is showing 12v, power for amp is showing 12v, 5v coming from line outs etc so by all means should work (all tested from amp end). Auto electrician said it sounds like an earthing issue, so let's see. Also changed battery for exide premium with 640CCA, higher than the 480 that was in there.

As always, appreciate all your feedback guys, this is one of the reasons (among many others) that I love Alfa, cars are fantastic but so is the community! :)
I'd be tempted to put a new earth strap on it. The main one which connects the gearbox to the chassis rail to the negative terminal. They don't last forever. I've changed 4 or 5 in the last couple of years on customers cars and noticed improved cranking speed on all of them, which matters a lot to a diesel.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Strange you mention earth strap, I am having an auto electrician come out next week also as the head unit (Bose) just does not seem to output any sound from the speakers, have replaced the Bose amp with 3 identical models and 2 different head units still no joy! All seems to work OK (except sound) tested with multimeter and amp remote is showing 12v, power for amp is showing 12v, 5v coming from line outs etc so by all means should work (all tested from amp end). Auto electrician said it sounds like an earthing issue, so let's see. Also changed battery for exide premium with 640CCA, higher than the 480 that was in there.

As always, appreciate all your feedback guys, this is one of the reasons (among many others) that I love Alfa, cars are fantastic but so is the community! :)
I'd be tempted to put a new earth strap on it. The main one which connects the gearbox to the chassis rail to the negative terminal. They don't last forever. I've changed 4 or 5 in the last couple of years on customers cars and noticed improved cranking speed on all of them, which matters a lot to a diesel.

Worth doing I suppose, heading to eBay now :)
 

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Should be part number 50504458 you need, forty-odd quid for a genuine one. Wouldn't bother with the generic ebay stuff, this is quite a nicely made cable with a central attaching point for the chassis as well.
 

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Should be part number 50504458 you need, forty-odd quid for a genuine one. Wouldn't bother with the generic ebay stuff, this is quite a nicely made cable with a central attaching point for the chassis as well.
Thank you for your help! Appreciated! Always good to get genuine ;-)
 

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Hey all, I bought a non starting 147 with MOT so was working not too long ago. I have checked the battery which needed charging which I did, checked battery earth connection which is also good.
The engine turns but will not fire, the fuel cut off in passenger foot well is fine as far as I know so looked towards the coils on the plugs and the left 2 plug holes were full and I mean FULL with oil and the coil stems were soaked, obviously from the filler cap being missed so the question is, and I know it's a stupid question but will this stop the engine from firing?

No other tests done yet as first couple of hours tonight since she was dropped off over the weekend to start looking for the problem so any advise will be much appreciated.

Thanks

Si
 
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