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Discussion Starter #43
There are ongoing discussions about Tonale being switched to a PSA architecture. Very probably PSA have a better architecture, than the one being reworked right now for Tonale.

Sorry, but it is probably too late - a switch to "PSA" would - more or less - kill the project which is now - hopefully - 6-9 months old. Time and money is - probably - better spent on "serious" upgrade of the FCA architecture.

As said before: crucial for Tonale is an Alfa rear suspension for "good enough" handling.

The fact that merger was announced yesterday does not mean that everybody are marching in tune today.
 

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The important thing is that the Agnelli/Elkann family get out of the car industry with a big pay-off!
The Peugeot 5008 gets better reviews than the Jeep that the Tonale “is” based on.
 

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Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
I forgot: there is another major reason for keeping to FCA architecture: they are designed for US safety requirements - including the IIHS Small Offset 40mph Crash Test -which is the toughest.

IIHS began testing this way about 10 years ago: 40mph, 25% offset against barrier. Driver side. Not very common, but manufacturers were "forced" to design for it.

Two years ago IIHS added similar passenger side test. It turned out - surprisingly - that manufacturers designed only for the driver side test.

It is unlikely that PSA has developed current architectures for this - or other US safety tests. To adapt is a major undertaking, which PSA will, in due corse, have to do for their architectures - but a fast track development of a PSA architecture for Tonale is highly unlikely.

I believe that both a FCA and a PSA architecture will need to undergo fairly substantial improvements to make a valid Alfa - hopefully they are on their way.

Also - this is a FCA "problem" - they want to handle this by Alfa engineers - on an architecture which in-house engineers know-there is only 120 or so km between Milano and Torino - a little longer to France.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
It took Tavares 18 month to turn around Opel - i.e. make Opel earn money. This is a much larger ship - I believe it will take a year to sort out a completely new General Plan.

During this time he will have to let some projects continue according to Plan - others to be revised. His chairman - from the Agnelli family - will not take lightly to any decision to "destroy" e.g. Tonale.

As said before: the man behind e.g. Stelvio Quadrifoglio and the Engine came from Ferrari, but is now part of Alfa. Hopefully he will also be in charge of Tonale.
 

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The important thing is that the Agnelli/Elkann family get out of the car industry with a big pay-off!
The Peugeot 5008 gets better reviews than the Jeep that the Tonale “is” based on.
if they switch to 5008 it would mean 1 or 2 years delay to Tonale, 5008 is also same size as Stelvio.
 

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if they switch to 5008 it would mean 1 or 2 years delay to Tonale, 5008 is also same size as Stelvio.
The 5008 is smaller than the Stelvio and it’s the three-row car!
Here’s the dimensions for the two-row 3008...

The Stelvio is 4,687-4,702 mm L x 1,903-1,955 mm W x 1,671-1,681 mm H

Versus 4,365-4,447 mm L x 1,837-1,841 mm W x 1,620-1,639 mm H for the 2-row Peugeot 3008.

And the Jeep Compass is
4,394-4,398 mm L x 1,819 mm W x 1,629-1,660 mm H

Very similar.
 

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The 5008 is a long wheelbase version of the 3008 which is Tonale equivalent. Width is 1.6 M
And the Stelvio is 1.9 M as it’s a bigger car. I have one and it is bigger than the neighbours Peugeot 3008.

That’s 1,903-1,955 mm W for the Stelvio From £36,519.5

W x 1,620-1,639 mm for the Peugeot... and from £25k list price.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Wheelbase is - normally - no problem - at least to lengthen.

Track is a bit more tricky - especially to make it more narrow.

Even more tricky is AWD - if mechanical. I Believe FCA have - but not PSA?

My impression is that FCA has platforms/architectures, of which one version would fit Tonale.

Problem is handling - as said before - need Alfa rear suspension and upgraded front suspension. All is possibel - just need money and time.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Interesting article in Automotive News Europe, which also has bearing on Tonale: John Elkann is part of "The Family" and will be chairman of FCA/PSA.

Tavares has said: we will keep all brands - each have its heritage and place in the line-up. Also: it will take up to a year to have all pieces in place.

It has been said before: Ferrari is not part of the deal - Alfa is.

My reading: Tonale will continue as is: built on FCA architecture - hopefully massively improved in order to also be base for small sedan - Giulietta?

Only concern is time - but I am prepared to wait in order to get a very good Tonale.
 

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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
New article in Automotive News Europe - interview with Mike Manley. One problem - he is currently MD of FCA - will soon be replaced by Tavares. This interview was orchestrated by La Familia.

4 main models - with another "possibel :Giulia, Stelvio, compact SUV/crossover (Tonale), small SUV/crossover. "Possibel" (my thinking): Giulietta.

Since this is supposedly a Tonale thread, I will start with T:

- based on reworked/upgraded Compass architecture, incl. hybrid and future full-electric versions. Amount of work suggests SOP late 2021.

Giulia, Stelvio: facelift and reworked architecture to encompass future hybrids and full electric versions. Warning: there is a risk that current "perfect" handling will be - slightly - detereoriated , in order to save money and enable hybrid/electric. SOP 2021!?

Small SUV/crossover 2022?, probably based on Tonale architecture, but reduced track and wheelbase.

Current Giulietta will be killed. My guess: new Giulietta, based on Tonale architecture, in 2023.

Pro:s and con:s: there will - probably - be a future "strong" Alfa - but without the most - moneylosing - spectacular models. Amount of work suggests late introductions and some quality issues.

This is - probably - similar to what Porsche did some 10 - 15 years ago: adding SUV:s to the 911 and Panamera line-up. They succeded…...
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Since I believe Tonale architecture will be carried over - adapted - to small-SUV - and hopefully Giulietta, there is room/possibility/need for Quadrifoglio versions for all three vehicles.

Luckily there is a possibel donor engine: Ferrari bi-turbo 4.0, 680bhp V-8 - just cut two more cylinders off the Giulia/Stelvio 510 bhp engine and you have a viable 340 bhp 4-pot engine!

Also: if adaption of Compass architecture for larger volumes than only Tonale, there is room for more extensiv upgrades. Only risk is electric adaption/ preparation. I believe VW is going the best route with different architectures for IC/electric.

And timing.....
 

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Having themselves discredited the internal combustion engined car, VW just happens to be ready with “the solution” in the form of electric car!
An engineer I worked with told me about when he was working at GM in Germany and the German industry discovered car safety. They quietly worked on it for when the European industry as a whole was required to consider it and they were prepared. Familiar?
Things are moving fast. Musk has started a factory near Berlin, handy for VW and you see him talking to Diess from VW at the AutoBild awards. VW in the form of Porsche has a joint venture with Axel Springer, the publisher of the magazine..
Meanwhile, FCA has just launched an EV Jeep in China.
 

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Current Giulietta will be killed. My guess: new Giulietta, based on Tonale architecture, in 2023.

The obvious fit is to build the next Giulietta on the same platform that PSA-FCA would build/develop for the next Vauxhall/Opel Astra.

Apart from the inevitable "recycled Vauxhall" jokes that will appear on here, which ignore that the current Astra is actually quite a competent riding and tidy handling car, it would bring several benefits to Alfa;

The next Vauxhall/Opel Astra platform would consign the Evo-C platform into the long grass, although some elements of that might still be useable/if updated. PSA-FCA will know which platform elements are better/cheaper/have more potential, so it doesn't matter how the new platform is created.

The new platform will go under the Astra and also the 308/C4(?), plus all the spin-off variants that PSA currently makes. That's a big volume. If Alfa taps into it, it will have a good, cheap and flexible platform to tweak for the Giulietta. A cheaper (i.e. cost, not quality) basic platform means more scope to stick expensive kit (sophisticated suspension) on it and still keep a moderate sticker price.

The expensive kit (sophisticated suspension) can be handy for Peugeot and Vauxhall/Opel in turn, if they wants something a bit more sauce at the top end of the Astra/308 ranges. It all improves the chances of the new platform being built able to accommodate Alfa's requirements (fixing points and geometry).

Jeep and Chrysler might borrow the platform to replace the 200/Cherokee/Dart etc. although these models might need replacing sooner (using the Renegade/Tonale platform). But a "PSA-FCA" platform under any of these models is more "sales" in the USA than PSA has managed by itself. It looks like a no-brainer to me.


Ralf S.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
Ralf, merger between FCA/PSA will be finalised around years end. Until then only limited cooperation will happen. La Familia wan´t jeopardise Alfa reputation and jump into bed with Opel - both for image and performance.

It is more likely for FCA to strengthen Alfa with cars which has a volume potential, and put money into cars that will, hopefully, create return on investment.

I have great respect for Tavares, but he is not yet in charge, and he will be controlled by the chairman, which is part of La Familia.

As I have said before: I hope Alfa is pushing ahead with revised Plan, and currently they only have FCA parts available. Even after merger is fully closed, there will take some time to learn the total parts bin. Tavares did that in 12 month with Opel - this is on another scale.

I can be wrong - last time was 19?? :blabla:
 

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Discussion Starter #59
cue2, it was Volvo and the US, who pushed for safety. Volvo with safety belts and US with air bags. Daimler Benz was on the heels of Volvo. GM came in third - SAAB as fourth.

Electric vehicles will - unfortunately - rule for the coming 20 years or so - then, probably, fuel cell/electric vehicles will take over. China has stopped incentives for full electric vehicles and moved over to support fuel cell/electric vehicles.
 

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I’m only putting it how my colleague put it to me having moved from a U.K. studio engineering job to one at GM in Germany and how he saw it.
 
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