[robobass]

When I was shopping for a car last winter I drove several french makes which had had the conversion. The cars drove fine, and the owners claimed no troubles. For the uninitiated, the standard conversion means you don't give up your petrol tank, you just add a gas container either where the spare tyre sits, underneath, or just in the boot. You use petrol for startups and hard driving, but LPG gas for cruising. You save something like 40% on your fuel bill, and the cost here is around 1k quid for installation. Sounds great, but the naysayers claim that gas is much tougher on the motor, and shortens its life.

Anyway, anyone out there running a TS on gas?

 

[mv_andrei]

A friend has coverted it's 1.6 TS to run on gas and he's quite happy with his choice. I know from a friend mechanic that LPG reduces the live of the engine valves by half. There are some car manufacturers that install LPG on their cars and I know for a fact that they do install hardened valves to extend the live of the engine (e.g. Renault).
But let's consider the following facts:
- your going to pay let's say 800 quid for the LPG conversion
- let's say the gas it's around half the price of the petrol ( 1L of petrol = 1.3 quid , 1L of LPG = 0.7 quid )
- for a cruising consumption of 9L/100KM or 32MPG the conversion will pay for itself in ~10000 miles
It's your choice ... I still think it's not the best idea in the world.
Still ... a friend has his Audi TT 180HP turbocharged engine running on LPG ... the german owner from whom he bought the car had paid 3000 Euros for the conversion. It's odd that if the drives over 4000rpms the gas cuts out and the engine starts to run on petrol. He found out the hard way ... the car stopped because he ran out of petrol while having half of the LPG tank full. )

 

[L445HAN]

This thread was running recently about LPG

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa...here-with-lpg-conversions-of-their-166-a.html

might be useful

Cheers

Jonathan

 

[Philjay50]

A friend has coverted it's 1.6 TS to run on gas and he's quite happy with his choice. I know from a friend mechanic that LPG reduces the live of the engine valves by half. There are some car manufacturers that install LPG on their cars and I know for a fact that they do install hardened valves to extend the live of the engine (e.g. Renault).
But let's consider the following facts:
- your going to pay let's say 800 quid for the LPG conversion
- let's say the gas it's around half the price of the petrol ( 1L of petrol = 1.3 quid , 1L of LPG = 0.7 quid )
- for a cruising consumption of 9L/100KM or 32MPG the conversion will pay for itself in ~10000 miles
It's your choice ... I still think it's not the best idea in the world.
Still ... a friend has his Audi TT 180HP turbocharged engine running on LPG ... the german owner from whom he bought the car had paid 3000 Euros for the conversion. It's odd that if the drives over 4000rpms the gas cuts out and the engine starts to run on petrol. He found out the hard way ... the car stopped because he ran out of petrol while having half of the LPG tank full. )

Nope, I cannot go along with that, cars have been run in Europe for decades on gas without problems. I had several BMWs while working over there all on gas all doing over 150k. To be fair, the first one had to have the valves done at 120k, but this was before hardened valves/seats became the norm, yes I am that old.
Some garages will tell you because of a higher calorific value and cleaner burn the engine should last longer, I have come across one installer that said the opposite but I honestly believe he did not want to do the conversion. There is a place in South Wales that has been mentioned here somewhere that seem very well gened up. May be worth a call.

 

[hdseven]

gas is only cheap cos of the duty on it.........the government can increase that at anytime.....it used to be 32p a litre !

have u thought of an oil burner.....mine does 45 urban and 60 on a run

 

[robobass]

- for a cruising consumption of 9L/100KM or 32MPG the conversion will pay for itself in ~10000 miles
It's your choice ... I still think it's not the best idea in the world.
Still ... a friend has his Audi TT 180HP turbocharged engine running on LPG ... the german owner from whom he bought the car had paid 3000 Euros for the conversion. It's odd that if the drives over 4000rpms the gas cuts out and the engine starts to run on petrol. He found out the hard way ... the car stopped because he ran out of petrol while having half of the LPG tank full. )

On the second point, I think the petrol cutting in probably largely eliminates the problem of premature wear, as your running petrol for startups and hard driving.

As to it being a good choice, maybe it's not best for me, as I drive only about 7k miles in a year, and much of that is autobahn travel. I go 100mph when I can, when presumably the gas would be switched off, but in reality you rarely get to drive that fast for long. Still, we were over €1.60 a liter for the last several weeks. If that's how things are going to be, then I think the installation recovery point will come much sooner than 10,000. Also, I guess that you can transfer the equipment to the next car in most cases.

 

[Philjay50]

On the second point, I think the petrol cutting in probably largely eliminates the problem of premature wear, as your running petrol for startups and hard driving.

As to it being a good choice, maybe it's not best for me, as I drive only about 7k miles in a year, and much of that is autobahn travel. I go 100mph when I can, when presumably the gas would be switched off, but in reality you rarely get to drive that fast for long. Still, we were over €1.60 a liter for the last several weeks. If that's how things are going to be, then I think the installation recovery point will come much sooner than 10,000. Also, I guess that you can transfer the equipment to the next car in most cases.

No a conversion done properly will cope with that I am sure. I have been using a Subaru 3.0 flat six with 280+ brake for the last few weeks and 100+ cruising is a breeze. All on gas with excellent economy. If you wish to use LPG, make sure that the installer has a good reputation and has been around for some time.
Whatever, enjoy your Alfa

 

[markdukes1]

re; LPG 1.8 TS

Hi, i had my 2003 1.8TS LPG converted in east london about 2 months back and can recommend it. For me, i didnt do it for any reason other than money. I drive 20-25k per year and was getting fed up with paying 140 per litre. My conversion cost 900 pounds and in six weeks ive filled up the (42l tank) 9 times saving me 20-25 each time. Here is my assessment of the pros and cons;
Pros; saves about 30% all things being equal. I lost 10% Fun and 10% MPG when i converted. I now get 29MPG from my 1.8 TS, and thats using old fashioned trip ommetre and fuel receipt, not the readout on the LCD screen. Apparently LPG being a non-solvent is softer on engines and exhausts; ive only coverd 2.5k miles so cant say eitehr way. You are also dual fuel, so can switch back anytime at the flick of a switch. i also save a whole ten pounds per year on road tax. insurance didnt go up for me.

Cons; Initial outlay. but on my mileage ill pay it back in about 8 months. Not everywhere sells the stuff and ive found the iphone apps to be rubbish. i tend to run it dry, wait for the bleeps when its run out then look for somewhere that I pass or where i know sells it. fleet services on the M3 sell it at the same price as high street shell for instnace. You also lose your spare wheel, as the tank fit in there. So i carry that expanding foam. It needs a service every year or so, but comes with a 3 year warantee. If you are really worried about cost per mile then PX for a diesel (alfa obviously), but this way i get the fun and eqhuast note of a petrol with diesel(ish) running costs.

For its really a financial decision. You dont pull up to a station and say "well my car is only worth X so i cant justify spending 85 on a full tank". If you know how many miles you drive just chrunch the numbers. Pay back is sooner than you think. I only wish i had got my last car done as i put 85k on it and woudl have litterally saved 3k after the conversion costs.

ask me again in 6 months for a longer term view though!

 

[StevoGT]

I ran a Land Rover Disco V8 on LPG. Sold the car in the end as it was killing me with the increased cost of LPG.

In 1 year of owning the car the LPG cost went from 40p to 75p litre. almost doubling my costs, it looks like the costs will increase again. I used to get approx 200miles out of a 75 litre tank. £56.25 to fill up currently, £30.00 when I first got the car (worth it). Add this to the fact if you live in London then you may find a garage with a fill up, otherwise you are stuffed as there aren't many of them left around the country, you really have to plan your trips and sometimes you have to go very stange ways to manage a fill up, increasing your mileage for the trip.

Would I convert in the current economic climate, no chance. Go buy a diesel, at least all garages sell it!

Steve

 

[TRIRIDE]

I had my 2.0ts converted about 5 years ago.
Yes, it really was around 30-40p per litre at that time! (now 0.80p).
I paid around £1,200 for the conversion (Romano- Italian system) and have covered around 70,000mls since, so have more than made my money back'ish (more about that later)
As said previously, the down side is the small tank that sits along side the exsisting petrol tank.
Mine has a 33litre capacity that will give a range anything from 110-140mls dependant on driving style!
On start up the engine runs on normal petrol then when up to temperature, usually after 5mins it automatically switches over to lpg.
The only problem I have had with the lpg system is when the gas leaked slightly on the filler neck on filling up. This was resolved by taking it to a lpg specialist who replaced it for around £100 + other checks etc.
Now! I have to admit I did have to replace the head after 40,000ish miles due to u/s valves on x2 pots. (lpg to blame?)
So on this basis, mpg etc drops dramatically and it's more of a gamble whether it is worth doing it or not (if it was to blame?)
Garages that sell lpg are also hard to come by and I have found it an art to time the tank running out of lpg to finding a garage that sells the stuff!
If I where to buy another Alfa, is would definatly be a diesel with good mpg and performance to match, until then I' ll run my 130,000ml 156 into the ground!

Pete.

 

[belfast bob]

I bought a 2.0 TS 156 a couple years back with LPG already fitted. It was a BIT cheaper than petrol, but LPG prices are catching up. LPG is a PITA to refill, few carriers here in NI and the pumps are rubbish.

It drove ok, but under the bonnet looked rubbish, plus there is the extra weight and the lack of boot space.

I think its not worth converting medium sized engines. Thankfully the previous owner took the hit.

 

[markdukes1]

I agree on the larger engines front, the garage I got mine converted at was littered with V6s and V8s undergoing work. Knowing I was going to convert does make me wish id gone for the 2.5 V6 engine, but that makes me laugh a bit about the environmental arguements you see out there!
I get 250-280 miles from the 42L tank, so its far easier to "plan" fill ups, but I do agree on the need to plan if you follow. Cheapest places ive found are Countrywide Farmers LPG, they are 73p per litre. Its a network of 24/7 unmanned pumps that are members only; you get a key card and clear off the bill at the end of the month.
Its a bit annoying to read that the prices have gone up but I suppose if the tax hasnt incrased then it must be the underlying product thats gone up, much like petrol.
One argue is to look at the big engined petrols and see that you can get a v6 a lot cheaper than diesel models (on the whole) so the conversion is paid for that way.

 

[robobass]

I don't get those complaining about how much LPG has gone up. Haven't petrol and diesel gone up as well? I saw some graphs showing that in Germany over the last five years or so, LPG tracks petrol pretty closely, averaging around half as much per liter for LPG. Right now it's well less than half.

Anyway, I'm reporting back. We finally did the conversion about five weeks ago, and then went directly on vacation, driving 2000 KM in the first week, and another thousand since then. Nothing to report really. It's totally fine.

We used a BRC Sequential24 which cost €1550 (about 1250GBP) out the door, and took the shop one and a half days to install.

Notes:

1. BUGS: A few weeks in, it's become hard to accelerate on a cold start. The guys said this can happen and it's only a small computer adjustment. Just bring it in. It goes away in a few minutes and is such a non-issue that I haven't bothered yet.

2. Tanking: Availability is no problem in Germany. About half the garages both on and off the highway have it - well maybe fewer, but it's not at all hard to find. The lowest I paid was €0.76/liter (62p) and the highest was €0.84 (68p). Super was averaging €1.69 (1.37). Tanking itself is a bit of a pain however. You have to screw on this stem, attach, and then hold down a filler button on the pump, which is pretty stiff. Makes my hand cramp up a bit actually. On disconnect there is a pressure release blast from the nozzle. Make sure you stand well back or you will stink of gas the rest of the day. A bit of a pain, but one I can live with.

3. Performance: Acceleration is a bit reduced, but I think no more than 10%. I only notice it in heavy traffic, or when I want to pass in the countryside. The thing is that you can switch back to petrol in about a second, so I run petrol when I want or need the performance. As to mileage, I think we get about 15% less than with petrol. At current prices that still translates to about a 50% reduction in fuel cost per mile.

4. Cargo space/weight: The gas tank is a big doughnut which drops in the spare tire well. I think it's 53 liters. So you have to decide whether to put the spare in your trunk or risk leaving it behind. We opted for the latter, and I put a can of Flat-Fix in the car instead. I haven't noticed the increased weight. Handling feels the same, but I haven't yet had a chance to really open it up in the mountains...

A few photos:
http://photobucket.com/AlfaLPG

Slideshow view:
Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

Whether or not this technology is worthwhile depends on many factors, local pricing and availability among the biggest. My wife and I think this was a great thing to do based on our circumstances.

 

[markdukes1]

Just an update , I've now covered 55k on the LPG and apart from getting it serviced twice in that time (pressure check, filter change , and diagnostic check), its been absolutely fine. Noticeable decrease in power though. Still on original exhaust, not sure if this is normal, but one of the claims made is that the LPG is softer on the system.
Anyway my diagnosis is that the TS is fully compatible with LPG, no need for flash lube.
The only pain is filling up so unless you live / work / commute near one just don't bother!

 

[Philjay50]

Lpg

Thanks for the update, my annual mileage is now only about 6k, many of them done on the continent. I was/am considering a V6 gt or maybe 159 and have it gassed, I just cannot get my head around the cash side of it and of course whether or not I will keep the car long enough to get the return.

 

[vamoursly]

I have a GT 3.2 v6 which came with an LPG conversion.

For £20 LPG - I can expect to get 140 - 150 miles

£20 unleaded fuel - about 15 liters, which would probably get me about 80-90 miles

Only downsides as pointed out earlier, you have to plan your journeys more for fill ups, lost the spare tyre and something not mentioned additional annual servicing on the LPG system, but overall I would say that I am quids in

V

 

[markdukes1]

Hi, i get between 245-270 miles from 44litres of LPG at ASDA in high wycombe this is 64p at present (October 2013) but most places its about 70p. so thats about 30 pounds for about 250 miles, as cheap as a diesel but quieter, smoother and a less complex block.
Pay back for me was more about "will i do at least 15k miles in this car?" rather than a period of time. Besides all LPG garages will allow you to port your kit from one car to your next (provided its a 4 cylinder) for a few hours labour. This is what i plan to do, as most people simply dont know / trust LPG in the UK. I drove to Italy in the summer and on the way about half of all garages had LPG, sadly not the case over here, maybe its because be are not (as a nation), that keen on modifications at all and also tend to change our cars more often than many nations.
Anyway, point is that it wont damage any alfa engine and does save about 25-30% on fuel costs.
Mark

 

[AutobotVanguard]

£1500 will buy you a decent facelift 156 diesel, £2000 will get you an 05 plate minter. If you sold your TS into the bargain you would end up in credit over an LPG conversion of almost the value of your TS. Even if you remap a diesel for even better economy you will have plenty left in your pocket. At this stage your diesel will do 55mpg mixed mileage and make you smile more than a 1.8 ever could. In addition it will be cheaper to run from there on and retain it's resale value much longer. On a £2k car you might make £1250-1500 back in 40k miles time!

Come to the Dark Side Luke

Nick

 

[Cream]

mmm but these diesel cost a fortune to repair when they fail dont they ? clutch, DMF, driveshafts again and again, and the injectors leaking crap all over the head.... fair enough if you dont get any of these problems, but if you get even one of them your fuel saving for the year in a diesel is bust

ive had all of these problems in two years and now the driveshafts are packing in for a second time.... these issues dont happen on petrol cars ... i think LPG might be a very good idea

 

[AutobotVanguard]

mmm but these diesel cost a fortune to repair when they fail dont they ? clutch, DMF, driveshafts again and again, and the injectors leaking crap all over the head.... fair enough if you dont get any of these problems, but if you get even one of them your fuel saving for the year in a diesel is bust

ive had all of these problems in two years and now the driveshafts are packing in for a second time.... these issues dont happen on petrol cars ... i think LPG might be a very good idea

What power are you running on it though? I bet it isn't a standard or economy map! Mine has been fine with a modest setting on the tuning box. I would guess that you have a torquey map on it right?

Nick