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Discussion Starter #1
I have been reading threads but for the life of me I cannot find the answer.

I have some mpg issues and would like first to check the condition and operation of my swirl valves / flaps.

I have a 147 jtdm 16v mjet ...which has an alluminium manifold.

Can i find the swirl flaps? No i blooming cant.

Either I am staring right at them or they are well hidden.

Please help

Thanks.
 

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I have been reading threads but for the life of me I cannot find the answer.

I have some mpg issues and would like first to check the condition and operation of my swirl valves / flaps.

I have a 147 jtdm 16v mjet ...which has an alluminium manifold.

Can i find the swirl flaps? No i blooming cant.

Either I am staring right at them or they are well hidden.

Please help

Thanks.
they are inside the inlet manifold, 4 in total, one for each cyl, the actuator is on top of the manifold connected (hopefully) to the actuator motor.
 

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You need to take the top engine cover off. Then look at the back of the engine down between the rear cam and the body of the inlet manifold, the top of the valves are discs about the size of a 10p piece that should be joined together with a flat bar.
 

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I have been reading threads but for the life of me I cannot find the answer.

I have some mpg issues and would like first to check the condition and operation of my swirl valves / flaps.

I have a 147 jtdm 16v mjet ...which has an alluminium manifold.

Can i find the swirl flaps? No i blooming cant.

Either I am staring right at them or they are well hidden.

Please help

Thanks.
What year is your car and what engine do you have exactly ? - theres no such thing as a "jtdm 16v mjet" - theres JTD 16v mjet or JTDm 16v. If its a JTD 16v mjet you deffo dont have swirl flaps, only JTDm engines had them.

There are 2 types - plastic manifold with metal flaps and metal manifold with plastic flaps.
 

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The only thing you will be able to see is the actuator arm and its external attachements to the flaps.

The flaps themselves are buried in the inlet mani.

So in answer to your question the inlet manifold has to come of for you to view the flaps..

This is a fairly big job so if you are not handy with the spanners leave well alone.

Autolusso do flap removal for £300 and if your cambelt is somewhere approaching 4 years or 50k then just do it at the same time.
 

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Yep, almost certainly* no flaps, but as has been said already, even if you had em you wouldnt be able to find em unless you took the manifold off.

* there was a change over period and sometimes the DVLA invents new models with their naming, for instance some cars may be down as "147 1.9 JTD mjet 16v Turismo" and some as "147 Tourismo 1.9 JTD mjet 16v", theyre both the same but the stupid DVLA effectively invents new models when it does this (or maybe its dealers or even Alfa Uk themselves). So, to be certain tell us the year.
 

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I thought all 147 16v diesels had swirl flaps. As far as I know only some early 156 1.9 16v's had an alloy (CF2) manifold without any flaps.

The 147 flaps come in two varieties:
  • Pierburg (CF3) one-piece alloy manifold with external top linkage and plastic flaps on the early cars. Problem with these is air leaks and the linkage breaking or falling off, and flaps closing or opening randomly. These can be repaired in-situ, with bearing kits from e-Bay. But you can't clean the manifold of oily tar deposits without removing it.
  • then from ~2006 (CF4) Magneti Marelli two-piece 'plastic' plenum chamber + alloy stub manifold. The actuator mechanism is underneath on these and completely hidden, and the flaps are metal and cause mayhem when they break off, which they will. Just putting mine back together now, with a de-flapped manifold + blanked EGR, after head/valve/piston(superficial, fortunately) damage from a detached flap.
    Inlet manifold out is a lot, lot less work (and expense) than the consequences of not doing it.

The cambelt can be left undisturbed by bolting the HP fuel pump pulley to the casing, it has holes and threaded bushes to allow this. It's awkward because of the limited access between engine and bulkhead, but not a huge job. Expect to have to remove all the studs, and one of the HP fuel pump studs, to be able to remove the manifold. With the 2-piece 'plastic' manifold, the plastic part can be removed and cleaned without removing the studs, but they still have to come out to remove the metal part, containing the swirl flaps, and actuator.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Now Im confused!!!

Where/how can I find out definitively if my car has swirl flaps / valves or not?

Ok to be sure these are the details of my car
147 jtd lusso m-jet 16v

55 plate
Date of registration 31/1/06.

Thanks for all of your replies
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I thought all 147 16v diesels had swirl flaps. As far as I know only some early 156 1.9 16v's had an alloy (CF2) manifold without any flaps.

The 147 flaps come in two varieties:
  • Pierburg (CF3) one-piece alloy manifold with external top linkage and plastic flaps on the early cars. Problem with these is air leaks and the linkage breaking or falling off, and flaps closing or opening randomly. These can be repaired in-situ, with bearing kits from e-Bay. But you can't clean the manifold of oily tar deposits without removing it.
  • then from ~2006 (CF4) Magneti Marelli two-piece 'plastic' plenum chamber + alloy stub manifold. The actuator mechanism is underneath on these and completely hidden, and the flaps are metal and cause mayhem when they break off, which they will. Just putting mine back together now, with a de-flapped manifold + blanked EGR, after head/valve/piston(superficial, fortunately) damage from a detached flap.
    Inlet manifold out is a lot, lot less work (and expense) than the consequences of not doing it.

The cambelt can be left undisturbed by bolting the HP fuel pump pulley to the casing, it has holes and threaded bushes to allow this. It's awkward because of the limited access between engine and bulkhead, but not a huge job. Expect to have to remove all the studs, and one of the HP fuel pump studs, to be able to remove the manifold. With the 2-piece 'plastic' manifold, the plastic part can be removed and cleaned without removing the studs, but they still have to come out to remove the metal part, containing the swirl flaps, and actuator.
Sorry to hear about your detached flaps halftone. How sure are you that all 16v 147 diesels have swirl flaps?
 

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{EDITED to remove some incorrect information}

It should be easy to tell by looking, what your car has, or hasn't got.

This photo is my plastic manifold engine bay. The green dots indicate the top of the black plastic plenum chamber. The actual stub manifold (metal) is just down and forward of that. You can't see any indication of swirl flaps with this type, the whole actuation mechanism is enclosed on the underside of the manifold, with a sodding big actuator motor hanging down the back of the engine.

A car with the earlier alloy manifold will have the whole manifold in a single metal piece - so no black chamber, an alloy one. A swirl flap actuator bar should run along the top of the inlet stubs, connected to the flaps inside via small cranks. The actuator motor is hung off the passenger side. It's not uncommon for the bar to go missing entirely, but you'd still have the cranks and the bearings the flap spindles run in. If not, look for plugs or weld in those locations. Either would signify the flaps have been removed already. Or if none of that, it has no flaps and never did.


Further reading:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-andamp-gt/928417-swirl-flap-paranoia.html

And a mega-thread, wherein Resolution - a member with a 159 and plastic manifold - and I (147 Sport Q2, also plastic manifold) both set out to fix the flaps before they failed, only to discover they already had. His 159 around 100k, my car 75k with a previous owner.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa...s-how-and-maf-clean-how-anywhere-159-1-a.html
 

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A 2006 147 16v will have a plastic manifold like mine I believe, so metal hidden flaps.

{EDIT: this is wrong. 2006 will have a metal manifold with or without flaps.
 

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I thought all 147 16v diesels had swirl flaps. As far as I know only some early 156 1.9 16v's had an alloy (CF2) manifold without any flaps.
No, as I ve already said, NOT all 147 or GT 1.9 16vs have swirl flaps, ONLY later models do.

The 147 flaps come in two varieties:
  • Pierburg (CF3) one-piece alloy manifold with external top linkage and plastic flaps on the early cars. Problem with these is air leaks and the linkage breaking or falling off, and flaps closing or opening randomly. These can be repaired in-situ, with bearing kits from e-Bay. But you can't clean the manifold of oily tar deposits without removing it.
  • then from ~2006 (CF4) Magneti Marelli two-piece 'plastic' plenum chamber + alloy stub manifold. The actuator mechanism is underneath on these and completely hidden, and the flaps are metal and cause mayhem when they break off, which they will. Just putting mine back together now, with a de-flapped manifold + blanked EGR, after head/valve/piston(superficial, fortunately) damage from a detached flap.
    Inlet manifold out is a lot, lot less work (and expense) than the consequences of not doing it.
I ve already explained to the OP about the 2 types of manifolds with swirl flaps, no need to repeat it. Theres also a third type of manifold, the original one, which is alloy but has NO FLAPS. (You could actually clean the inside of the manifold without removing it - Terraclean can do this for about £100).

That is my recollection of what [email protected] said, and he knows what's he's talking about. Unless your 147 has been fitted with an early flapless 156 manifold, or been de-flapped, it will have them.
Well your recollection is wrong I m afraid halftone - Ned would never have said that "all 16v 147 diesels have swirl flaps", because they dont.

This photo is my plastic manifold engine bay. The green dots indicate the top of the black plastic plenum chamber. The actual stub manifold (metal) is just down and forward of that. You can't see any indication of swirl flaps with this type, the whole actuation mechanism is enclosed on the underside of the manifold, with a sodding big actuator motor hanging down the back of the engine.
You DONT need to "see any indication of swirl flaps with this type" - if the engine has a plastic manifold it WILL HAVE FLAPS !! Again I ve already said this !!

A car with the earlier alloy manifold will have the whole manifold in a single metal piece - so no black chamber, an alloy one. The swirl flap actuator bar should run along the top of the inlet stubs, connected to the flaps inside via small cranks. The actuator motor is hung off the passenger side. It's not uncommon for the bar to go missing entirely, but you'd still have the cranks and the bearings the flap spindles run in. If not, look for plugs or weld in those locations. Either would signify the flaps have been removed already.
Unless of course its an alloy manifold on a CF2 car ie WITHOUT flaps.

A 2006 147 16v will have a plastic manifold like mine I believe, so metal hidden flaps.
No it wont, you believe wrong I m afraid halftone - as I ve already explained, it will have an alloy manifold with plastic flaps, cars to mid 2006 had this set up, his car was registered in Jan 2006 so would have been made in 2005, maybe even in 2004.

Again I ve said this already, but if its a JTDm he deffo has flaps (m stands for "modificata" Italian for "modified" one of the mods was the swirl flaps). If its a JTD mjet, he may or may not have flaps, depending on the year of manufacture.

Now Im confused!!!

Where/how can I find out definitively if my car has swirl flaps / valves or not?

Ok to be sure these are the details of my car
147 jtd lusso m-jet 16v

55 plate
Date of registration 31/1/06.
Dont listen to halftone, mightyworthit, he means well but hes getting confused and confusing you in the process - I said earlier that if you have a JTD 16v mjet your car probably hasnt got them - I d thought ONLY cars badged "JTDm 16v" had flaps. But I was wrong - I checked Autolusso's site and actually 2005 - mid 2006 cars had the alloy manifold with plastic flaps, so there ARE some cars badged "JTD 16v mjet" WITH flaps and, unless your car was sat around for about a year before being registered, then you DO probably have flaps.

But its not too much to worry about as theyll be the plastic flaps so if they fail they wont cause engine damage, just a bit of rough running. Unlike halftone's, whos engine had the metal flaps that can cause drastic engine damage if they fail. So DONT PANIC too much, but get them removed when you can or replaced with a flapless CF2 manifold from ANY car with a CF2 (2002 - 2004) 1.9 16v engine (which could be from a 147, 156 or GT, halftone - they ALL had flapless engines up to 2005 !!).

If you want to check, remove your engine cover and look, you should find an alloy manifold (so halftone's picture wont help as he has the plastic one) and you should be able to see the rod connected to the actuator that controls the flaps. If you cant you may be lucky and have a CF2 engine. (I m assuming your car is a facelift, if it isnt then its probably gonna be a late registered CF2 engined car).

Check out Autolusso's page on it (link below), its written by Ned, so its what he actually said, rather than someone's recollection ! :)

Autolusso - Swirl Flap Delete
 

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I am almost certain my manifold is not plastic but metal. There is no plastic.

Mjet? Is this significant?
Yes, but there are 2 types of alloy manifold one with and one without flaps - read my post above.

Can you see a metal rod running over the top of the intake manifold like the picture in the link I posted above ? Is your car a facelift ?
 

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No, as I ve already said, NOT all 147 or GT 1.9 16vs have swirl flaps, ONLY later models do.



...[/url]
Yes, indeed, sorry I was getting confused - trying to type a lengthy reply too fast and misremembering something Pud (not Ned) said.

Let's try again. It was the 156 that never had flaps (ended before CF4 introduced them), early 147 16v's (CF3's) had no flaps. From sometime ~2006 flaps started to appear on the GT,147 with CF4 engines. Later the alloy manifold was changed to the plastic.

OK?

If you don't have them, that's great.
 
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