Tough call ... if you want everyday cane-it-and-enjoy, the 3.0/3.2 V6 is probably a better match for your wishes. I have a TB and think it's fantastic. I hear stories of 2.0 V6 parts being hard to get. Not sure about that ... yes, you can't walk into a local motor spares outlet and leave with new sleeves, pistons etc. But I have not ever failed to find what I want and at prices which are not criminal. Just takes a bit of searching Teh Interwebs and having a few informed contacts in the enthusiast space.

The NA Bussos are arguably a "purer" experience .... the TBs wins for me with a beautiful wave of torque.

If you ran a TB and ran into engine parts woes, that may be an excuse to source a 2.5 V6 12V engine and give yourself a 25% capacity boost 🙃 while attending to things. Easier to find bits (so I am told) but I have honestly never let alleged parts scarcity put me off.

Front suspension is a little different, it's true. But even there, I have had zero trouble sourcing new dampers and so on. My only 'complaint' is that Alfa were a bit silly leaving the 284mm single-piston brakes on the 2.0 V6 TB and the 3.0 12V Spider. Both cars need better brakes for when you do drive with some verve. I fitted a 330mm GTA / Brembo 4-pot setup to my TB. What a difference!

Reliability - in absolute terms, heck, it could be less reliable than a 3.0/3.2 24V ... but really speaking, if you maintain your 20+ year old 916 properly, I would argue it should be no less reliable in day to day use.

Sound - I run a very boring (to many) IMASAF 2-box system aft of the cat ... and yes, it is quiet/restrained at idle. When wound up though, you certainly do hear the Busso singing still. I am not a fan of many of the aftermarket setups which honestly end up making the Busso sound like a Ricer to me. Something that gives a little basso profundo, with a little operatic performance higher up, that I can live with. They exist ... but most are just loud IMNSHO. In brief - yes the turbo mutes the song slightly, but you can get much of it back if you play with exhaust setups. I have owned NA Bussos (2.5 and 3.0 12V) so have a good personal baseline for comparison.

Mmm ...

 

.....But I have not ever failed to find what I want and at prices which are not criminal. Just takes a bit of searching Teh Interwebs and having a few informed contacts in the enthusiast space.

Warning: Thread Hijack inbound

In your searches have you come across (or know of) a place that sells overhaul kits for the power steering pump? It seems this pump is unique to the TB engine. I have had no luck finding new or refurbished pumps. There's a few used ones on ebay in Europe but none ship to Canada and without an overhaul they are likely no better than the (very noisy one) that I have.

 

It depends on you how a V6TB sounds. Mine sounds the best of all Busso's! Well.. that is what I think...

Weight is about the same as 24V because of the bigger heads and more steel in the 24V heads.

It is not much more nose heavy than a TS, but because of more power => more understeer.

Front suspension has V6 dampers and TS anti roll bar.

Front brakes are like the TS: crap

Mine is on the way to 300horses...

 

Viva boost! And displacement! I have in mind a 2.5 12V stretch on mine (when I have the time!) ... keep it up, sir!

 

There's no replacement for displacement!

 

... but forced induction helps when displacement is not easily found! I find I quite like the halfway house of "a bit more displacement", with some lower/moderate boost .... I can't say the 3.7+ Busso stretches really do it for me. Too many engineering compromises. A piston/sleeve stretch to 3.5 seems the sweet spot to me.

 

2.0TB is covered in the GTV / Spider manuals available on Totally Alfa's website.
The origin of the 2.0 V6 was to offer higher power without the increase in tax in Italy. Ferrari also offered a 208 GTB with a 2.0 V8 for the same reason.

 

Thanks for all the replies.

Great info! By the way, this is not for everyday use. It‘s for weekend drives only, B road drives and the occasional track day or short road trip in summer.

I guess it will be easier if I breakdown the topics, for easy following.

1. Noise. I just searched YT for sound clips of the TB and I‘m fine with that.

2. Power. To be honest I‘m fine with the stock 200hp and really happy with the power boost a simple chip or remap seem to deliver. I‘m not really after huge power. 300hp in a FWD car would worry me a bit that it would be transformed in a straight line monster.

3.Handling. When I drove a TS and V6, I felt that the TS handled better. Less diving and so on. But I told myself that if I found the right V6 I would buy it and wouldn‘t let the better handling in the TS be a deal breaker. But now I‘m worried about a V6 with TS suspension. Maybe I shouldn‘t be? I guess they changed the suspension from the TS in the 3.0 for good reason?

4. Weight for the TB is listed at 1430kg, while the 3.0 24V is listed at 1415kg. If that small difference makes it even more nose heavy than the 3.0 I can‘t say. But again, since the suspension is TS, that worries me.

5. Suspension. But so the difference in front suspension between TS and V6 3.0 is only dampers and anti roll bar?

6. Breaks. I have read that even the GTA breaks are still not great and better would be advisable?

7: Swap. So the consensus is that the worthy swap is a 2.5 to turbo instead of a NA 3.0 or 3.2?

8. Reliability. I guess it‘s realistic to expect slightly less reliability as the 3.0 has no turbo to break.

 

My TB is listed at 1380kgs...

 

How is it possible that it weighs just 10kg more than a TS? Did you get it into a diet? What is your weight savings trick?

 

2. Power. To be honest I‘m fine with the stock 200hp and really happy with the power boost a simple chip or remap seem to deliver. I‘m not really after huge power. 300hp in a FWD car would worry me a bit that it would be transformed in a straight line monster.
If you want a bit of a torque bump, Squadra's TB chipset is great. And no other mods required.

3.Handling. When I drove a TS and V6, I felt that the TS handled better. Less diving and so on. But I told myself that if I found the right V6 I would buy it and wouldn‘t let the better handling in the TS be a deal breaker. But now I‘m worried about a V6 with TS suspension. Maybe I shouldn‘t be? I guess they changed the suspension from the TS in the 3.0 for good reason?
I've driven TSs, TBs, and NA V6s ... yes, arguably the TS is slightly more chuckable, but honestly, most people really do not notice much difference. And if you have any of the V6s, there are aftermarket setups like the KW V1s/V3s which work well, and will let you sharpen the "lesser" responsiveness of the V6s. And don't forget that tyre choice also makes a difference. I REALLY don't think the handling difference is vast ... my TB has the allegedly lesser front suspension setup ... and it works well (new LCAs, new struts, new bushes ... standard springs).

4. Weight for the TB is listed at 1430kg, while the 3.0 24V is listed at 1415kg. If that small difference makes it even more nose heavy than the 3.0 I can‘t say. But again, since the suspension is TS, that worries me.
I challenge anyone to genuinely tell the 15kg difference! I wouldn't worry about the supposedly lesser (TS-oid) front suspension setup, especially if you don't intend pushing silly hp numbers).

6. Breaks. I have read that even the GTA breaks are still not great and better would be advisable?
They're very nice indeed ... but again, good pads and decent quality discs help. Don't go cheap. The 305 GTA brakes are not bad, and most of the NA 916 V6 24Vs have 305s. Most stop well enough.

7: Swap. So the consensus is that the worthy swap is a 2.5 to turbo instead of a NA 3.0 or 3.2?
Hard to say - hugely down to what you like or feel is best. I'd rather see a TB kept as a TB (later on, survivors will carry an originality premium, but they can also be "unmodified" I guess!). Drive a TB if you can, and then a 3.0/3.2 NA ... ideally back to back. And see what tickles you best!


Paul

8. Reliability. I guess it‘s realistic to expect slightly less reliability as the 3.0 has no turbo to break.

 

3.Handling. When I drove a TS and V6, I felt that the TS handled better. Less diving and so on. But I told myself that if I found the right V6 I would buy it and wouldn‘t let the better handling in the TS be a deal breaker. But now I‘m worried about a V6 with TS suspension. Maybe I shouldn‘t be? I guess they changed the suspension from the TS in the 3.0 for good reason?
I've driven TSs, TBs, and NA V6s ... yes, arguably the TS is slightly more chuckable, but honestly, most people really do not notice much difference. And if you have any of the V6s, there are aftermarket setups like the KW V1s/V3s which work well, and will let you sharpen the "lesser" responsiveness of the V6s. And don't forget that tyre choice also makes a difference. I REALLY don't think the handling difference is vast ... my TB has the allegedly lesser front suspension setup ... and it works well (new LCAs, new struts, new bushes ... standard springs).

To me the difference in handling was pretty obvious. It was the reason I started looking at TS cars. Curves is where the fun is.

But so what exactly is different with the V6 3.0 suspension compared to the TS? Is it difficult to upgrade a TS to V6 3.0 suspension?

The V6 TB has the exact same suspension as the TS, right?

 

Sound.. Did you find this one too?

 

This sounds great.

By the way, in some clips I hear a turbo waste-gate or whatever the sound some turbos make is called. In others I don't hear that sound. Does the V6 TB do that sound stock or not? I never liked that turbo sound. For me the more silent a turbo is the better.

 

Helmholtz reonators make almost ANYTHING Sound good but a Boosty Busso.. oh yes please. This is lovely

 

How do you fit one of those in the limited space under one of those cars, assuming you are talking about the adjustable J pipe used to tune out resonance at certain rpm. I have a GT 3.2 with a cat back system that sounds awesome but has an annoying resonance at around 2,200 rpm. I would like to get a J pipe fitted so I can tune it out, but I can’t see how one would fit under there.

 

But the work to swap a V6 TB to 3.0 24v NA would be the same as if swapping a TS to 3.0 V6, right? At first i thought the V6 TB was a better stating point. But since suspension and basically the whole engine needs to go, I guess it's the same as swapping a TS?

 

All 916s are basically the same. Uprating the suspension is not a big deal. Just bolt on stuff, OEM or better: aftermarket.

Engine swaps are a far bigger job. If I would do an engine swap on a TS I would go for a Fiat 5 cilinder 20VT for sure to create something special and super powerful.
Trust me 200/240hp is nice but the car can handle much more.

 

I’ve thought about fiat coupe 20vt engine into a Gtv or spider but Wouldn’t do it to my Gtv 3.0 v6 plus have a fiat coupe 20vt which has mods to engine and suspension with around 280bhp
So like the different between driving the Gtv v6 and fiat coupe 20vt

 

I’ve thought about fiat coupe 20vt engine into a Gtv or spider but Wouldn’t do it to my Gtv 3.0 v6 plus have a fiat coupe 20vt which has mods to engine and suspension with around 280bhp
So like the different between driving the Gtv v6 and fiat coupe 20vt

I'd ponder picking up a sound but unloved 1.8TS GTV and uprating brakes, suspension, and then a 20VT heart transplant. Would not do to a V6 model.

I have been tempted by a 20VT Coupe for some time ... probably will stay with my Alfas though. How do you find the Coupe relative to the GTV? (Subjective, I know ...)

Paul

 

With all the ZF PAS pumps the internals are common, the castings and attachments vary.

The above is a pump from a Porche 944.

The internals are common.
The article these pictures are from quotes
You can use a Rennbay 944 kit on our Audi(s)...RB002 Power Steering Pump Seal Kit @ $21.50
http://www.rennbay.com/
So there is a USA site you could follow up.

 

I have no good pictures taken from underneath when it was standing on my carlift.

The connection pipe is just 10cm (not something like 50cm which is on the picture).

 

Thanks.