[tommix]

My turbo died, so went and bought hybrid upgrade from local reputable company - TurboSystems.
They did all the work needed. Took and put new turbo.

THE PROBLEM:
With hybrid car CANT get stock boost... it takes AGES i mean ~20secs in 4th gear flooring to get 1,6bar Boost. and 98mm3 of fuel injected.
They said they adjusted geometry control as per manufacturer's specs. But i never heard that hybrid is not able to do at least stock boost! Looks like they failed to calibrate geometry actuator.

Wen i changed VNT maps and added +15% to values then turbo spools faster and so on.. but still pretty hard to get 1,6Bar boost. While stock could pretty fast do 1,8Bar. in matter of seconds.
WTF? I think this is turbo problem not software. If i need to change +15% VNT map this is not the option.. it should not require that much of change. Car with no changes took 13 SECONDS! to get from 1700 rpm to 3100rpm!

Maybe this will give some clue - exhaust after hybrid got MUCH loader! So i guess too much exhaust gas comes with no effect on spool yes? Because turbo should act like silencer in some sence.

I uploaded csv log of my latest "tune". with more then 15% increased VNT map values.

 

[Headloq]

They really need to look at this ... but just pondering your comment on exhaust being "louder" on the fitted hybrid turbo, your comment re them failing to calibrate the geometry actuator sounds like a good shot. With a non-VNT turbo, I'd hazard a guess that the internal wastegate could be stuck open. Two consequences of VNT actuator not actuating correctly (or a stuck open wastegate) would firstly be that the exhaust turbine gets a lot less gasflow and hence takes an infinity to spin the compressor up and build any boost, and secondly, I guess it is possible that more undamped/energetic gas makes its way out and exhaust seems louder.

Second item is hazarding a guess. First item I had many years back when a T25's internal wastegate stuck open on a turbocharged A-series of mine. Car became an utter dog to drive with symptoms very similar to those you describe. Best I could get was about 3 lbs of boost (0.2 bar) redlining the engine in the lower gears. Freeing of the wastegate returned all my boost (and performance!).

Just my Sunday afternoon 5 cents' worth. Probably wrong.

Paul

 

[tommix]

Thanks Headloq. I think they did calibrate it good. It's hard to fail to calibrate such easy thing. I also logged now actuator's possition wanted and real (both comes from ecu). and they matched pretty well. Only when ecu wants 0mm gets -0.18mm but that's ok.
The problem for me is PID control. My all tests was done by trying to floor it... And only when i did test in cruize i noticed that VNT maps are ok, im getting even more boos then needed. (100-200mbar more). SO my changes works.
But when you accelerate those maps are no longer being used so much, there is something called PID, and unfortunately in my case with this engine i cant find those maps. DId not try very hard, but i dont have em.

But i have bigger problem - engine.. turbo failed because car lost oil, 3.5Liters... and turbo died, but by sounds from engine looks like it's got damaged too. Knocking sound now loader. Sounds like old diesel.
So i need to get car checked before i can move on with turbo. Will give it someone who have experience with hybrid mapping. It takes too much time from me.

I guess i got slightly bigger turbo internals that's why it was such huge difference. I know a guy who got hybrid on the same engine and he told he did not notice big difference in power loss when was riding with no ecu tune.

And exhaust sounds super loud on loads i guess because of no boost. I have straight exhaust..but when it vibrates on load sometimes i think i'll lose some pipes

 

[n1ekas]

I don't think you need to change PID maps just yet. There should be one more VNT map you want to try to play with. In map pack it's called "map for value of boost pressure control in case of transient recognition".

 

[tommix]

I don't think you need to change PID maps just yet. There should be one more VNT map you want to try to play with. In map pack it's called "map for value of boost pressure control in case of transient recognition".

HI thanks. Problem is that for my engine not all maps goes in the same order as per DAMOS for EDC16c39. But i think i have it and i mainly change that one [PCR_rCtlTrans_MAP] .
Anyway today i saw some guys with bigger hybrid VNT map..it was crazy high... all values was 100% until rpm of 2250. And in my case i only using like 67% max [which is already pretty high imo] in 2250 rpm in 70mm3+ area.
But i may be changing wrong VNT map. i found more vnt maps then in DAMOS that i have.SO i change them all (i maybe not even found all of them - found 8 maps).. to avoid many flash writes, because i dont have full backup only OBD and i know that ecu have write protection after some writes, i guess after 255 writes. And i'll already done like 100 in past year

PS> oh you was talking about PCR_rCtlTrans_MAP map..yep this one is not changed! It have very simple data and IQ only til 60mm3 so i ignored it..
Also when i LOG boost solenoid position it never have values like in this map..so this is also was like yet again one more proof to ignore this map.

 

[tommix]

By the way, now i stopped all tests... engine is damaged had no oil and was driven about 40km. [that's why turbo failed and i changed to hybrid]. Have to fix it first then will test mentioned map.

 

[tommix]

UPDATE. Got my car from service, told everything is fine..doesnt sound like fine too me, but well who cares.
Adapting hybrid turbo was MUCH MUCH easier then everybody makes it to look. ECM does all the job..you can put almost any value sin VNT maps and it will work. Now turbo works ok, spools pretty fast. I have to update MAP sensor now to read past 3000mBar, because of that - pressure is now limited to 2950.. to be secure.

To people who will be in the same boat like me - well.. hard to advise anything specific.. As i said take all VNT maps, and add at least 20% to it (depends on how much larger hybrid is) from 50% of your max IQ till 3000 rpm. And log the changes. See how it's doing.. and add more or remove some % from map.
ECU does the hard lifting. Also im not sure is this mandatory or no - but i recommend in alfa romeo cars to reset learned functions via MultiScan ECU. I think it helps.

Also in alfa romeo 159 EURO 5 - SOI maps are ****, need to advance a little bit at least. i advanced about 4 degrees in two last IQ columns.

 

[Jetronic77]

is your egr disabled/removed that you need to advance soi?

 

[tommix]

is your egr disabled/removed that you need to advance soi?

Yes egr is blocked, but advancing is needed anyway no matter of egr. Compared to other alfa's 159 2.0 jtdm is more retarded [ ] and i guess this is just because of higher euro standard, so SOI is used to combat NOx [and DPF combats increased HC] and sacrifice fuel economy or optimal performance. In my country MOT measures HC not NOx. so for me it's even better to advance SOI, advanced soi produces less HC. Of course everything have it's own downsides.

 

[Jetronic77]

I have a euro 5+ giulietta so it won't be better than your 159

 

[tommix]

I have a euro 5+ giulietta so it won't be better than your 159

I didnt look at giulietta SOI maps, but mine from factory are not great. At least at some places, later SW revision fixed those stupid points. If you know how to tune - i would recommend you to try advancing SOI few degrees and you'll notice the difference. At some points i was advancing soi A LOT. not few degrees but more then 8. Im not using dyno, so it's hard to notice every soi change, but it have big effect in almost every thing..temps, fuel economy, responsiveness, spool, power, emissions.