[Ian Lusso]

How do you know when your remap is working?

In about a month's time I want to take my GTV for a remap. Trying to "calculate" or "Figure out" how much power can be expected is driving me nuts, since I like to know how things add up and they have to add up in order to make sense to me. (Consider: I intend fitting a Dastek UniQ-4, which is a mapable ecu rather than map my own ecu).

I know a remap doesn't make power from nothing. On a NA engine, it works if:
1. Timing needs to be adjusted.
2. Fueling needs to be adjusted.

That's it. And anything that affects timing and fueling will need to be compensated for: Different cam, some head work, free flow exhaust, free flow air filter, etc. Basically you want as much air going into the engine as possible (mechanical work will help for this in NA cars) then you want your fuel to burn at the right time to release as much power as possible. That means adding as much fuel as the air will burn, at the right time and igniting it at the right time (software will do this). That is what the remap will do for you.

To make my question more clear, I would like to know (since the map will be looking at flow values from the MAF and injectors) does anyone know what these values should be? I can get values from MultiECUScan but obviously my car isn't stock and I am looking for stock values?

 

[corriedw]

The Unichip do not give figures for any correction made to fuel or timing. Readings is a bar on the chart. That makes matters very difficult for us Ian. Too much timing for 1 minute on the dyno can toast the rings first and soon after the piston shape will go.

For fueling it is easy, you will have a reading from the gas analyser. With timing, well here lies the dragons. First you don't know what the timing is from the ECU and you don't know how much timing is added/subtracted by the chip. You just have to trust the tuners experience. If power is still adding, it is still good. When the engine is not reacting to more timing you are already to far. With a turbo engine it is worse, much more difficult to find (knock comes up where boost kicks in)

If you have knock sensing equipment (Knock-link) it will help, because it is very difficult(impossible) to hear knock in our engines. But I have not seen anybody in SA with the equipment. Dastek cost me an engine after screwing with the timing(at my request). To make things worse, at Dastek you are not allowed near your car on the dyno. Safe way is to do the fueling and then when on torque, make small timing changes to see reaction in power delivery. Perfect timing is 1 deg less than knocking(most power). You can try to monitor with ECU-scan during dyno session and watch for active knock sensor, but it will only confuse you. The S3 ECU(different to S1/2) in your car permanently functions from the knock sensor, adjusting the timing continously through the whole range. Theoretically the S3's timing should always be perfect. I will NOT screw with it. With Hennie's turbo S3 the timing interveened the whole time.

An old Toyota trick to check the timing afterwards, is to go to 60km/h(2000rpm) in 4th, and then suddenly floor the throttle. If your ears are good(mine is not), the engine should ping at that moment (timing will be too fast for engine speed, if the knock sensor doesn't pull the timing back too fast. This work on the S2). I hope this help and maybe you will understand my paranoia with tuners.

 

[Ian Lusso]

Corrie since the S3 is always running off the knock sensor, does this mean that fitting a unichip won't work? Or can it still be used to assist with fueling?

I heard a tuner at SAC say that my engine doesn't respond well to the unichip, only at higher RPM. I'm prepared to take that, as most of my mods were to increase high rpm power.

 

[corriedw]

Corrie since the S3 is always running off the knock sensor, does this mean that fitting a unichip won't work? Or can it still be used to assist with fueling?

I heard a tuner at SAC say that my engine doesn't respond well to the unichip, only at higher RPM. I'm prepared to take that, as most of my mods were to increase high rpm power.

The fueling can and must be adjusted by the Unichip. There are still a map but the way I understand, the timing part on the map is used only in emerencies ie. the knock sensor signals are out of range, temporary or broken ect. On the S1/2, the ECU goes to the map on anything more than half throttle, which include a timing setting. On the S3 the ECU will go to a map for fueling but not for timing, which is continously run from the knock sensor. Ie.This makes it very difficult to tune a bolt-on turbo on a S3 ECU. This is what a lot of tuners do not understand and they don't differenciate between S2 and S3 Alfa ECU.

As for the ECU not responding well to Piggy-back tuning. True, a lot of tuners don't do enough homework or think you are not clever enough and don't explain. You must understand that at low speed the Lambda is controlling the fueling. So no amount af tuning will make the fueling richer, leaner or more economical on small throttle. The ECU will just use lambda readings to over-write what the tuner has just done. Tuners try this and fail, then it is a crap car. (my GTV is extremely heavy on fuel when I pussy-foot around and I suspect my lambdas are past their best. But great on fuel when I tow my caravan, because then it is on the map)

Ian PM me you e-mail address I would like to pass something on.

 

[Avi]

So, is an S2 ECU better than an S3?

 

[corriedw]

So, is an S2 ECU better than an S3?

No, the S3 is better in every way but tuning a turbo engine. No matter what influences is on a NA engine, the timing will be good. Example: Hennie once manipulated this at a 400m sprint event. He ran the car balls to the wall, every day, for a week on 104 Octane fuel. The ECU was not limited by a fixed map and could advance the timing more before knock, making more power. It learned what was expected and hennie didn't go back to granny-mode to infuence this new setting. On the run he were 0.4 sec quicker than me and the GTAs. Like a turbo car, the S3 ECU can benefit from Octane Boosters where with an S1/2 you are wasting your time and money.

On the turbo engine issue, the S3 is still better as the timing has no top or bottom limit, it goes where the knock sensor trigger it. On the S1/2 you can only go where the high/low octane limit is programmed. But during programing the turbo engines extra fueling, the knock sensor intervene regularly, pulling timing back, confusing everybody by funny power graphs, until everything is perfect. Yes the S2 will be easier to program but timing can only be pulled back a certain amount making it not as safe.

 

[ArthurB]

Wow this is the information I've wanted for ages.

So will the GT 3.2 have the same ecu as the Ph3 3.2 GTV?

If so I means my intentions to fit a unichip to optimise fuelling are exactly right. and that the instruction must be to make no attempt to change timing but only ensure optimum fuelling?

Also, will the ECU ignore the chip when running on lambda readings?
If so, only when you put your foot down and it changes over to the map, will it then run the modified fuelling values?

 

[Guili]

Ian why don't you go to the guys who tuned the 3.8 Monstro in CPT? Surely they should know how to do this? It sounds far too complicated and you JUST rebuilt your motor I won't go playing with possibly messing it up after a rebuild.

On the topic, I thought your car was fast enough? Or is it not the same anymore after the engine rebuild?

 

[El 4 Romeo]

Ian why don't you go to the guys who tuned the 3.8 Monstro in CPT? Surely they should know how to do this? It sounds far too complicated and you JUST rebuilt your motor I won't go playing with possibly messing it up after a rebuild.

On the topic, I thought your car was fast enough? Or is it not the same anymore after the engine rebuild?

Not about speed for Ian. It's about efficiency. At least I think it is aranoid: ...

 

[corriedw]

Wow this is the information I've wanted for ages.

So will the GT 3.2 have the same ecu as the Ph3 3.2 GTV?

If so I means my intentions to fit a unichip to optimise fuelling are exactly right. and that the instruction must be to make no attempt to change timing but only ensure optimum fuelling?

Also, will the ECU ignore the chip when running on lambda readings?
If so, only when you put your foot down and it changes over to the map, will it then run the modified fuelling values?

Yes, yes and yes. The ECU will decide which parameters to use at any stage.

 

[corriedw]

Ian why don't you go to the guys who tuned the 3.8 Monstro in CPT? Surely they should know how to do this? It sounds far too complicated and you JUST rebuilt your motor I won't go playing with possibly messing it up after a rebuild.

On the topic, I thought your car was fast enough? Or is it not the same anymore after the engine rebuild?

The Monstro is running a stand alone ECU, not std ECU with a piggyback unit.

 

[Ian Lusso]

Revisiting this thread for a quick question: I recently met a guy running water/meth on his N/A Honda S2000. He said you deffinitley feel the difference. He has an aftermarket Hitachi ecu installed (JDM product) that runs similarly to the S3 ecu in the GTV: It allows timing to be increased until just below knock. He claims about 5% to 10% power difference when running a 50/50 mix of water/meth.

My question: Since the GTV runs on knock control, could such an installation work to gain some ignition advance?

 

[Gertie]

Revisiting this thread for a quick question: I recently met a guy running water/meth on his N/A Honda S2000. He said you deffinitley feel the difference. He has an aftermarket Hitachi ecu installed (JDM product) that runs similarly to the S3 ecu in the GTV: It allows timing to be increased until just below knock. He claims about 5% to 10% power difference when running a 50/50 mix of water/meth.

My question: Since the GTV runs on knock control, could such an installation work to gain some ignition advance?

Yes it should help. WMI increases the engine's knock resistance, so more advanced ignition timing can be run

 

[scrgdk]

I'm confused? I thought you had a bearing knock?
Or is that sorted now?

 

[Ian Lusso]

I'm confused? I thought you had a bearing knock?
Or is that sorted now?

Yes I suspect a main bearing. But what does that have to do with the question that I asked? :thinking:

 

[scrgdk]

In about a month's time I want to take my GTV for a remap.

This is what it has to do with it, I am not understanding how you will remap a car with a bearing knock. Unless you had already done it and I wasn't aware. Hence the question. Thanks for the clarity though.

 

[henniev]

Yes it should help. WMI increases the engine's knock resistance, so more advanced ignition timing can be run

and ups the octane of the fuel - would definitely be able to advance the timing! But
WMI is very crude; get the mixture wrong or a jet clog and the whole setup goes up in smoke. We ran 100% meth through an injector setup and that was a lot more reliable

But 100% meth in your car is not a good idea

 

[Ian Lusso]

This is what it has to do with it, I am not understanding how you will remap a car with a bearing knock. Unless you had already done it and I wasn't aware. Hence the question. Thanks for the clarity though.

Dude. Slow down. You visit the forum once every 3 months then you get all confused. Let's put you in the picture: I don't know the date of that quote where I said that I was going to map the car, but I only heard the knock for the first time on 1 July so if I quoted BEFORE 1 July that I was going for a remap then it becomes invalid. Also, on 1 July I left for a 2 week holiday in Plett and my thoughts at the time was "It didn't happen, it will be gone in the morning..."

Secondly, how old do you think I am? Mapping a car with a duff bearing? :cheese:

 

[scrgdk]

Mapping a car with a duff bearing? :cheese:

Stranger things have been said.... :xmas: