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Discussion Starter #1
So, I’ve been looking for a low mileage, well-cared for example of a 3.0 V6.....and there seems to be a fairly standard set of mods which are carried out on a number of GTVs

The Q2, sports exhaust, 330mm Brembos, equal length downpipes etc all make perfect sense, but I would like to ask the general opinion on the GTA clutch/flywheel replacement over the standard DMF.

Can someone explain to me what the reasons/benefits/pros/cons are?

More free revving?
Lighter feeling clutch?

If the car is driven in normal every-day situations - not necessarily high revving - what are the benefits? Does the GTA clutch make for easier driving?

I realise this is a very common-place mod.....I am embarrassed to admit I don’t really know why :embarrassed:
 

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My understanding is that a Dual mass flywheel has two different mass(weights) matched to crank and flywheel, that can move independently of one other. The end game is to reduce the vibration, shunt, and stress created by transferring engine load to the driveline.

If youve ever shaked hands with someone and they grabbed your hand much harder than you expect..and then they shake you up and down and almost pull your arm out of it socket this happens with engine and gearbox over and over again.

Now imagine you are instead holding onto a dummy cloth sleeve with dummy hand on the end. The mad shaking hand man from before can grab and shake that dummy hand/sleeve quite violently before it actually effects your own hand and wrist.

I guess that is sort of what a DMF does.

In the real world this translates as less noise/vibration for occupants and a more refined smooth driving experience.

Personally I dont want more refinement from the GTV (as its not very good at it). I want a more raw sports car like feel with lightining fast co-oridnation between throttle input and front wheels turning. . I think this is fairly common of GTV owners.

We would rather have our necks snap backwards lurching out of corners, than be comfortable pulling away in stop start traffic situations.

There is also the factor of the V6 already being super smooth.. you can blip/rev match the throttle and gradually lift the clutch and pull away very very smoothly with a single mass flywheel.

Some theories suggest that, DMF's were partly introduced as an expensive service item to increase maintenance revenue.

This is another factor in why they get changed. COST. DMF are expensive. SMF are (were) not
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Superb reply...thank you Jowey.

Would you say the clutch pedal is noticeably heavier with the DMF?
 

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The alfaholics anti roll bars where also a brilliant upgrade for me, highly recommended.
 

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I second all of CGC's comments here !

Its a hydraulic pull type clutch and action is very light.. the single mass flywheel is already matched to the crank (this is Alfa Romeo after all) you pay for the engine, the rest of the car is free.

Alfaholics ARBs make a big difference to the body control of the car and should be considered before any other chassis mods in my eyes.
 

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I have the GTA clutch/flywheel on my V6 and it feels to me that engine is perkier/spins up quicker/better throttle response, it also has a lighter clutch pedal action. Some say on here that it does very little, mine was done when the Q2 was fitted. If considering performance mods (probably more so in turbo cars) I read a SMF is usually sought for longevity.

Given the relatively low gains to be had tuning the NA V6, for the money, I would take the Q2 (piece of mind for GB) but also totally transforms the handling and ability to get the power down, short shift plate and better brakes (standard are pretty fecking awful).
 

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I didn't realise that a GTV had a DMF. if you've ever hefted one you'll know why getting rid of them is a good idea - they weigh a tonne, about 3x what a normal flywheel weighs. They also go wrong, expensively.

I binned the DMF on my 166, and it spins up like a normal 3.2 now, rather than sluggishly. I apparently have the GTA conversion on my new new GTV, ( https://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/motoring-images/1179437-the-gtv.html ), but the engine is still too sick to really feel the difference.
 

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The DMF is expensive to replace and very heavy in use.

I changed to the GTA version when I had the Q2 fitted. Much lighter , cheaper and pleasant to use.

A Q2 or Quaife is, imo, essential for the V6. As stated it transforms the handling and completely removes torque steer. You can accelerate into and out of bends as if on rails and totally negate the argument that the 2.0 is better on the twisty bits.
 

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Superb reply...thank you Jowey.

Would you say the clutch pedal is noticeably heavier with the DMF?
My 3.0 GTV is totally original - from virtually new, with 30,000 miles on her. The DMF is really light.

The DMF absorbs a lot of vibration, particularly at low revs, making it more refined at low speeds.

It would take a lot more than a SMF to make this car perform as an out and out sports car. Heavy lump at the front and front wheel drive, not a good recipe. The 2.0 better in this regard.

But as an out and out Continental Cruiser, it is unparalleled. Calais to Florence is an absolute joy and where the 3.0 is most at home.

However, it isn’t best suited to the hilly roads of Tuscany.

The Q2 diff is a good mod as it was not uncommon for the Busso’s power/torque to shatter the diff casing if power was applied with a heavy lock on thee steering wheel. It has been known to happen when people were manoeuvring in car parks. My diff is standard so I am always conscious of the risk. Besides, mine is a five speeder and I was told I would have to change to six speed to fit the Q2 - but I don’t know if that’s true or not.
 

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The DMF is expensive to replace and very heavy in use.

I changed to the GTA version when I had the Q2 fitted. Much lighter , cheaper and pleasant to use.

A Q2 or Quaife is, imo, essential for the V6. As stated it transforms the handling and completely removes torque steer. You can accelerate into and out of bends as if on rails and totally negate the argument that the 2.0 is better on the twisty bits.
Try the twisty bits in Tuscany and you will soon change your mind. Or you will be off in a shot. The 3.0 is a pig on anything that looks like a bend and I am not talking about tracks where one has run off areas.

Love the car to bits. But it is a G(rand) T(our) V(eloce), not a sports car. My car is a 1998 and we have done many long journeys, six hundred miles plus in a day comes easy to her. But an hour on the roads around Sienna, trying to be Fangio and I want to throw the keys away for a week.
 

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Try the twisty bits in Tuscany and you will soon change your mind. Or you will be off in a shot. The 3.0 is a pig on anything that looks like a bend and I am not talking about tracks where one has run off areas.

Love the car to bits. But it is a G(rand) T(our) V(eloce), not a sports car. My car is a 1998 and we have done many long journeys, six hundred miles plus in a day comes easy to her. But an hour on the roads around Sienna, trying to be Fangio and I want to throw the keys away for a week.
Fair enough.

My point was comparing the two GTVs though - 2.0 and 3.0 and the fact that the with a Q2 the 3.0 is as good (or as bad if you wish) as the 2.0.
 

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Fair enough.

My point was comparing the two GTVs though - 2.0 and 3.0 and the fact that the with a Q2 the 3.0 is as good (or as bad if you wish) as the 2.0.
No question, the Q2 improves the 3.0. But the 2.0 is a naturally better balanced car, Power more suited to the chassis and much more delicate. The 3.0 can be brutal, although I love it. The 2.0 with a Q2 - do they do one for the 2.0? - would be a further advantage to the smaller engined car. A 3.0 litre GTV and a 2.0 Spider would be my dream pair. But it is academic really. 2.0, 3.0 or 3.2, they are all great cars. Front wheel drive a bit of a bugger, but I would rather that, than not have them around.
 

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The Q2, sports exhaust, 330mm Brembos, equal length downpipes etc all make perfect sense, but I would like to ask the general opinion on the GTA clutch/flywheel replacement over the standard DMF
First of all I’d go for a V6 Spider not a GTV, but I’m biased towards soft top motoring, albeit at the expense of scuttle shake, security etc, but that’s another discussion 😉

Q2 is probably the best mod to insist on, but as with as with all your requirements, you can get them done yourself, just adjust the amount you pay 🤔

Sports exhaust- why? Is it sound you want? or more power? I’m sceptical of the latter

330 Brembos again why? I doubt they improve braking much to warrant the cost.

Equal length downpipes- what does this add? Can someone explain?

Single mass flywheel - this sounds a good mod, but only if you have to replace anyway. I’ve driven >120k miles on standard clutch in two V6 spiders, both with no signs of clutch slip, so the argument of cheaper clutch replacement next time is dubious, but if you want smoother reving engine and are willing to pay, then it’s up to you

I would personally prefer to spend my money on improving a standard car, in the long run standard cars will be more desirable than modified cars (IMO)

Good luck in your search
 

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First of all I’d go for a V6 Spider not a GTV, but I’m biased towards soft top motoring, albeit at the expense of scuttle shake, security etc, but that’s another discussion 😉

Q2 is probably the best mod to insist on, but as with as with all your requirements, you can get them done yourself, just adjust the amount you pay 🤔

Sports exhaust- why? Is it sound you want? or more power? I’m sceptical of the latter

330 Brembos again why? I doubt they improve braking much to warrant the cost.

Equal length downpipes- what does this add? Can someone explain?

Single mass flywheel - this sounds a good mod, but only if you have to replace anyway. I’ve driven >120k miles on standard clutch in two V6 spiders, both with no signs of clutch slip, so the argument of cheaper clutch replacement next time is dubious, but if you want smoother reving engine and are willing to pay, then it’s up to you

I would personally prefer to spend my money on improving a standard car, in the long run standard cars will be more desirable than modified cars (IMO)

Good luck in your search

“I would personally prefer to spend my money on improving a standard car, in the long run standard cars will be more desirable than modified cars (IMO)”

Bang - On!

And they aren’t that terrible without all the dubious improvements.

The only genuine improvement will be the removal of manifold cats. They crucify that lovely Busso.
 

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First of all I’d go for a V6 Spider not a GTV, but I’m biased towards soft top motoring, albeit at the expense of scuttle shake, security etc, but that’s another discussion 😉

Q2 is probably the best mod to insist on, but as with as with all your requirements, you can get them done yourself, just adjust the amount you pay 🤔

Sports exhaust- why? Is it sound you want? or more power? I’m sceptical of the latter

330 Brembos again why? I doubt they improve braking much to warrant the cost.

Equal length downpipes- what does this add? Can someone explain?

Single mass flywheel - this sounds a good mod, but only if you have to replace anyway. I’ve driven >120k miles on standard clutch in two V6 spiders, both with no signs of clutch slip, so the argument of cheaper clutch replacement next time is dubious, but if you want smoother reving engine and are willing to pay, then it’s up to you

I would personally prefer to spend my money on improving a standard car, in the long run standard cars will be more desirable than modified cars (IMO)

Good luck in your search

If you want to know what the point of a good exhaust system is, watch this and read the translation.

As for equal length exhausts, it ensures both the scavenging and the back pressure of each cylinder is identical at whatever speed the engine is turning at. The knock - on being the pulses from the exhaust are in tune!

However, with manifold cats, it is a pointless expense as they negate virtually all the advantages.

The exhaust system in the clip recovers 18 bhp of losses, with the 147 GTA , 7.3%; more than the software which adds 5.69% to the standard 147 GTA’s 246 bhp.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
First of all I’d go for a V6 Spider not a GTV, but I’m biased towards soft top motoring, albeit at the expense of scuttle shake, security etc, but that’s another discussion 😉

Q2 is probably the best mod to insist on, but as with as with all your requirements, you can get them done yourself, just adjust the amount you pay 🤔

Sports exhaust- why? Is it sound you want? or more power? I’m sceptical of the latter

330 Brembos again why? I doubt they improve braking much to warrant the cost.

Equal length downpipes- what does this add? Can someone explain?

Single mass flywheel - this sounds a good mod, but only if you have to replace anyway. I’ve driven >120k miles on standard clutch in two V6 spiders, both with no signs of clutch slip, so the argument of cheaper clutch replacement next time is dubious, but if you want smoother reving engine and are willing to pay, then it’s up to you

I would personally prefer to spend my money on improving a standard car, in the long run standard cars will be more desirable than modified cars (IMO)

Good luck in your search
Thank you - a perfect summation of what is really the crux of my questions....

Whilst searching for “the one”, I am endlessly encountering the standard litany of mods and I just wanted to know what each one brought - benefits/detractions/empty wallet!

I have no doubt equal length downpipes do.........something (what Sizewell said!) But would I actually notice? Ditto sports exhaust. Maybe I’m an under-achiever, but for my purposes I felt a 3.0 or 3.2 V6 has more horses than I sensibly need, so trying to squeeze another 5 here or 7 there is a moot point......for me.

I was leaning more towards getting the best car I possibly can for my money (solid, no welding done, great servicing etc) rather than get a “meh” car and spend loads on twiddly bits.

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to chip in. All really interesting points :)

Q2 and save up for catless manifolds.... seems to be the general consensus?
 

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I don’t think it is just about performance mods.

My GTV will need a new exhaust soon enough - I’ve dropped the whole thing, I’m welding new lambda bosses on the downpipes, putting new flexis on, and doing a few patches at the back for the MOT. But it needs a new one really. The immediate concern is the cat. I suspect it is knackered as the substrate is loose.

My options for the cat are:

- Get an unbranded one for £150 off eBay. This won’t light up at idle, but will work at speed. Every MOT will involve a thrash round the block before the emissions test.

- Get an aftermarket “exhaust manufacturer” one off eBay. £400 quid. It’ll work, but won’t last that long, very mild steel.

- Alfaholics sports cat. £700. Will work, will outlive me, problem solved, forever.

- Get an original one from Alfa. Ha. Ha. Would you like a mortgage with that sir, and we don’t have them any more.

So basically the difference between buying a cheap bit that that will probably work, but not last very long, and solving the problem permanently, is £300. I’ll take the latter.

I wouldn’t fit EQ length pipes because of the ground clearance. They do sound better though.

330 brakes give far better pedal modulation and control. IMO 305s are worse than the 286 single piston jobs on 156 V6s. No idea why. As for originality, the discs are consumables, and stick the old 305s in the garage if you are worried about resale. They can go back on in 30 minutes.
 

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No question, the Q2 improves the 3.0. But the 2.0 is a naturally better balanced car, Power more suited to the chassis and much more delicate. The 3.0 can be brutal, although I love it. The 2.0 with a Q2 - do they do one for the 2.0? - would be a further advantage to the smaller engined car. A 3.0 litre GTV and a 2.0 Spider would be my dream pair. But it is academic really. 2.0, 3.0 or 3.2, they are all great cars. Front wheel drive a bit of a bugger, but I would rather that, than not have them around.
Again fair enough!

I had a 2.0 GTV for 8 years before I got the 3.0 Spider.

I loved driving it and, of course, threw it around corners. It was particularly interesting entering roundabouts and, when safe, gunning it whilst changing direction - left, right, left and straight ahead. It stuck really well.

I bought the Spider and tried the same - almost spun off whilst accelerating and turning at a relatively low speed. The torque steer was appalling - impossible to accelerate quickly whilst turning. Added the Q2 and, honestly it was like driving the 2.0 again but quicker around corners.

Just my experience!
 
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