[maniago]

Hi. New around these parts. Have a '72 GTJR with the 1300 motor. Have had it going on 20yrs; was my daily driver and I autocrossed it in Italy where I bought it. The motor was rebuilt before I bought it (slugged a piston due to detonation - I have the piston). The motor might have 15k miles on it max. Its always had some snot in the breather tube, but not a lot and no water in the oil. Over the last year (its been hibernating in the garage for almost 10yrs, but gets run in the summer) coolant is draining into the oil - alot of it - maybe two cups. And just while sitting, not running. I just drained it again after a 6 mo sit (never ran the motor, rad cap loose the entire time) and it had about a 1/4 cup of water and the oil smells like old stale gas. Clearly I have a leak. I doubt a head gasket but not having torn into this motor before, I'm not sure about where all these fluids might meet and I don't want to start twisting wrenches unnecessarily.

Any suggestions on where to start or look first?

Thanks for any help.
Mani

 

[David C]

This needs moving into the classic section.

These are wet liner engines, so there are unfortunately a few places where coolant can be getting into the oil.
ie: The seal at the bottom of the liners.

 

[maniago]

This needs moving into the classic section.

These are wet liner engines, so there are unfortunately a few places where coolant can be getting into the oil.
ie: The seal at the bottom of the liners.

Oops sorry. Didn't know I'd enter classic realm yet. Figured that was the '60s and earlier.

As an update, I just drained the coolant, then ran it for about 20-30 secs three times (after cooling). Drained the oil - More liquid in the oil, but its clear as it comes out first, not lime green like the antifreeze. And the rest of the oil is of course trashed. I'm gonna pray that a blown fuel pump diaphram might let fuel into the oil pan and that's what I'm seeing.

Is that likely?

 

[kandlbarrett]

Head gasket or as DavidC said seal at bottom of the liners.

There isn't anything like oil/water heat exchanger on these (on less you fitted one) so it can only be internal to the engine block/heat/liners themselves. No easy fix here.

 

[maniago]

Head gasket or as DavidC said seal at bottom of the liners.

There isn't anything like oil/water heat exchanger on these (on less you fitted one) so it can only be internal to the engine block/heat/liners themselves. No easy fix here.

I'll repost this over in classic and get out of your guys way. I have other 105 questions anyway.

Moderators pls kill this thread. Thanks

 

[David C]

I'll repost this over in classic and get out of your guys way. I have other 105 questions anyway.

I've sent a message for it to be moved.
So at some point it will hopefully get moved into the classic section.

 

[maniago]

Looking at the fuel pump, which has fuel coming in and out the top vs the bottom, if I have a ruptured diaphram, would it leak fuel into the sump? Haven't taken it off yet, but the oil stinks like kerosene vs a sweet smell Id expect if it had antifreeze in it......

 

[kandlbarrett]

As replies in the 147 thread. If it is water then headgasket or bottom seals on cylinder liners. Maybe someone will suggest something else to try but I will be surprised.

Some might suggest condensation due to sitting but that seems like a lot of water just from sitting.

 

[classicgal93]

Moved to Classic tech section and merged with your other thread.

 

[Top Down]

Oops sorry. Didn't know I'd enter classic realm yet. Figured that was the '60s and earlier.

As an update, I just drained the coolant, then ran it for about 20-30 secs three times (after cooling). Drained the oil - More liquid in the oil, but its clear as it comes out first, not lime green like the antifreeze. And the rest of the oil is of course trashed. I'm gonna pray that a blown fuel pump diaphram might let fuel into the oil pan and that's what I'm seeing.

Is that likely?

If you have drained the coolant, it cant be that which is leaking into sump. I think you need to check the fuel pump,dont you?

 

[maniago]

..........dont you?

Well, no, I'm just trying to fish at the pond of experience here wrt the fuel pump before I yank it off.........ie "can't be the fuel pump - theres no path between the fuel side and the sump side no matter what" or "yes, its a known failure mode of that pump".

No matter.

Thanks.

 

[kandlbarrett]

Mmm, hadn't thought of fuel pump. Rather than remove the pump why not remove and block the fuel pipe. Removal is easy with just two 13mm nuts or bolts IIRC. Though I would have thought that petrol would mix with the oil and not sit separate.

As oil floats on water (typical SG of oil is 0.85 and pure water is 1.00) any water will sink to the bottom.

 

[maniago]

Though I would have thought that petrol would mix with the oil and not sit separate.

Yes indeed. A good point I keep overlooking. The clear liquid does flow out first from the drain, then whatever has mixed with the oil. Maybe I have two unrelated problems. Which I suppose if I do have a blown cylinder seal and a wiped out set of rings, I'd get both. Does seem improbable though.

What has me grasping at straws other than a blown seal is that the fluid is clear - like plain water. But my coolant is crazy florescent green - I would think unmistakable even is small amounts.

For that matter, how common is a blown cylinder bottom seal?

 

[kandlbarrett]

Blown seals seem quite rare but I am not an expert nor have lots of experience. The last one of these I rebuilt was about 20 years ago. My Alfetta GTV (basically same engine with some updates) has only done 58,000 miles and engine has never been open.

There is one other place that water could get into the oil that I have just thought about and that is via the water pump. The rev counter drive is from the water pump even on later cars where the rev counter drive was electronic the casting still included a section for the speedo drive. That section has oil in it and a drain back into the block and the water / oil is separated from each other by the water pump gasket.

Regards the fluid being clear it could still be condensation but that is a lot of condensation. If it is from coolant does the antifreeze / coolant additive possibly get absorbed into the oil leaving plain water behind.

 

[maniago]

Ah tach drive. Now were cooking with gas. Thanks for that thought.

re: color absorption, IDK. Seems kinda odd that that would happen, and at that almost instantaneous. I don't know what they use for the coloroing agent, but I'm sure you have a point that lab grade ethelyene glycol should be clear.

As far as condensation, no, no chance. Way too much water consistently. One oil chance would eliminate it. I'm on change 3 within a few days, though I did neglect to change the filter and that was a mistake. It was holding a fair amount of watered oil itself.

 

[Top Down]

In post #3 you said you ran it without water, sensibly in short bursts, but you still got water in the oil, is that right? If so, there is no other place where there is water in the engine, unless not all the water was drained, can you confirm?

 

[spiderserie4]

If you haven't drained the block using the block drain plug, there'll be plenty of water still in the engine around the cylinders (and those liner seals)

If it is fuel in the oil (somehow just can't imagine that, unless it is a spica injected car, where a leaking pump would allow fuel into the oil), you just need to smell it, it will stink. (Edit: I see you wrote it smelled of stale gas?)

Done a simple coolant pressure test?....if the pressure does not hold, it is leaking......if it is not leaking out on the garage floor, it is going elsewhere, like into the oil, in which case get that oil out (again) before you ruin your crank/bearings etc and start dismantling.

Did the engine maybe freeze one night?...cause a crack between water/oil jacket somewhere?

 

[maniago]

Alfared - yes - water same as before, with the coolant drained. Pic atched of the last drain.

Spider - ah - block drain you say. Nope. Didn't know. I'll do that next and do another batch of short runs and recheck. No on the pressure test. Its academic (see below). Yes on gas smell. That's the gotcha that doesn't make this a tidy problem.

I can't do a full tear down right now gents - I'm in the middle of an airplane build and that's got my complete attention. But the GT shares garage space with the plane so its motor does pray on my mind. What I'm trying to get to is a pickled state with all the watered oil removed, get a good coating of fresh on bearings crank cams etc and let the motor sit pickled for future work.

 

[maniago]

Ok. 99% sure its a bottom seal. Openned the block drain and drained the oil again. And this is with new oil, new filter and NOT started or turned over. Same same. Polluted oil. And since it happens to be a bright sunny day, I could see the green in the liquid that comes out. Thank you mother sun. But to be sure, I also captured some of the oil in a clear jar to let it settle and be sure.

As for the gas smell, yes that's still there, so maybe rings are shot or the walls are shot. I'll have to scope it.

How hard are these liners to change? Are they a press fit in and out or is there a trick - like pins or threads/screwed in like aviation cylinders, etc? I have a shop manual that I'll use when the time comes, but its buried somewhere in my basement "library".

Thanks for the helps so far guys. Much appreciated.

Mani

 

[spiderserie4]

liners just press in (no threads or the like)
There are threads on the BB about this with lots of tips, but read thru your manual first, before starting.

You might have to fabricate a tool to mimic the factory one to lift out the liners from the top, as they can be stuck.
Some ideas here:
Liner Removal Tool - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums