[t3yls]

Is the inlet manifold cracked somewhere or have holes? Has someone bodged a swirl flap removal?

Over time, the swirl flap pivots that sit on top of the manifold lose their seal and air escapes. Hence the oily mess around them.

An easy check is to pull off the actuator bar, seal flaps 1,2 & 4 in the open position with some hardening putty (to stop the air leak)and see how it drives.





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[dgmayhead]

Over time, the swirl flap pivots that sit on top of the manifold lose their seal and air escapes. Hence the oily mess around them.

An easy check is to pull off the actuator bar, seal flaps 1,2 & 4 in the open position with some hardening putty (to stop the air leak)and see how it drives.





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Ok that makes alot of sense. I prefer your repair to the new manifold solution but I suppose it's an opportunity to totally remove the flaps.
Another thought I had was perhaps in the process of cleaning and refitting the egr valve the threads have been stripped and the valve no longer makes a seal to the manifold. Again though I'm sure there is a cheaper fix than putting a new manifold on.

 

[halftone]

Swirl flaps are normally open over about 2000rpm. They are closed at idle to promote swirl in the combustion chamber to improve the combustion that is deliberately degraded by EGR. So I don't understand your mechanics belief that flaps stuck open will prevent running. Early 16v had no flaps so were effectively always open.

Your swirl flap pivots are clearly worn and leaking, which is the source of the oily carbon mess. Some boost will be lost, but I doubt that is enough to explain the problem. You haven't mentioned the MAP sensor in the inlet manifold. I have a suspicion it's going to be clogged up and look like a piece of coal. Combined with boost loss at the pivots that will play havoc with fuelling. It's one screw to remove, check and clean. But some careful checking with MES should be much more useful than guessing.

 

[gibot123]

As previously mentioned by lots of others it is a good suggestion to blank of the swirl flaps anyway.
While the swirl flaps are not difficult to remove, removing the intake is needed to do the job.
This is a little bit more of a job as you need to remove the fuel pump and this involves removal and refitting of the cam belt to get the manifold off.
I'm going to do this on my 159 which is basically the same job.
I have been asking questions and searching info and have come to the conclusion that it is the best course to take.
Due to this regardless of what the mechanic says stuck open stuck shut makes no odds they are not performing any useful function and if they are deteriorated they are likely to break or cause an issue.It will certainly give you runnig issues.
The fact that it is all so filthy means whatever manifold you hve solid or 2 piece it will need thoroughly cleaning whatever you decide.

I hope this helps you make a decision.

 

[halftone]

...
...This is a little bit more of a job as you need to remove the fuel pump and this involves removal and refitting of the cam belt to get the manifold off....

Remarkably (for an Alfa it doesn't. The HP fuel pump pulley has two holes in that allow 2 30mmxM6 bolts to fasten it to corresponding threaded holes in the support bracket behind. The pump can then be removed leaving the pulley in place, with the cambelt still tensioned and no risk of movement. So there's no need to touch the belts at all, just the top cam belt cover needs to come off for access to the pulley.

Getting the all-metal manifold off will still be a bit of a struggle, as the manifold fouls part of the support bracket, and a small area has to be ground, Dremeled or filed off the bracket.

The plastic+metal type of manifold is actually easier because it can be split in situ. There are just 2 allen headed screws down the back that fasten the plastic plenum to the metal stub inlet that contains the swirl flaps. Once the plastic part is removed it's possible to remove all the studs which allows the metal part to be removed without the fouling problem.

It certainly is worth doing. Deleted swirl flaps and blanked EGR fix the Achilles heel of this engine. Well, OK, the other Achilles heel aside from the waterpump.

 

[luciano aliquo]

good news have to do mine as soon as they arrive from Ireland was not in the mood to strip everything as the manual said

 

[ShadowArcher]

I'm following this thread with interest but it is getting very messy. Could it be there is a communication break down between yourself and your mechanic? If we are to assume that egr, vnt, maf, map, turbo and fueling have all been eliminated (by a competent mechanic) as a cause of considerable power loss then the next line of enquiry is the internals of the engine.

From the comments posted I'm guessing 1 swirl flap or more have detached and caused damage. But, I make my assumptions based on the fact that all other possibilities have been investigated as swirl flap failure is the worse case senario with regard to cost. It is not the start of the diagnostic process. To avoid the consequences of failure many owners chose to remove their flaps. This doesn't alter the performance of the car and if damage has been done removal of the remaining flaps will not restore performance.

To add to the confusion: flaps are in the inlet manifold but every now and then someone says valves as if they are referring to the same thing. Could it be the mechanic has diagnosed valve damage and loss of compression (pressure) in the cylinders caused by broken valves and this narrative has been lost in translation. Furthermore; I'm struggling to understand how manifold pressure is escaping. Is the inlet manifold cracked somewhere or have holes? Has someone bodged a swirl flap removal?

So basically, I think you have to trust your mechanic on this as he's the only one of us to see the car. Sometimes a little bit of knowledge is more harmful than none!

Please keep us posted as to the outcome of the investigations. You might yet find a small diameter piece of vacuum hose restores performance! Fingers crossed.

This thread is getting more confusing! The only thing everyone seems to agree on is that I shouldn't have to get a new manifold, yet when I texted my mechanic to confirm that I definitely need an entire new manifold and not just swirl flap delete, he said it needs a new manifold. So perhaps he saw something else that he didn't mention or I've forgotten him mentioning?

I think at the end of the day, you're right - I have to trust the mechanic. If I can find the right screwdriver to take out the MAP again I'll give it a clean again but, as I said, he already cleaned it. I took the cover off the engine this morning to see if I could get a good picture, and there's a thick layer of carbon over everything - I need it fixed soon!

Also, I've clearly caused more confusion by referring to 'valves'. What I mean by that is the little things that are attached to the little bar, and cover the holes in which the swirl flaps are situated. Those are what were stuck open - we have no way of telling if the flaps themselves are.

 

[Pud237]

There must be someone you can take the car to who knows what they're doing?

 

[ShadowArcher]

There must be someone you can take the car to who knows what they're doing?

Well, the thing is , I don't know anything about the people here - helpful though they are bring and have been in the past - whereas I know my mechanic is an Alfa specialist who worked for Alfa for years, and who the car's previous owner trusted completely. So as far as I'm concerned, I am taking it to someone who knows what he's doing, but people here are telling me he doesn't. I'm not in the best position :s

 

[Pud237]

Well, the thing is , I don't know anything about the people here - helpful though they are bring and have been in the past - whereas I know my mechanic is an Alfa specialist who worked for Alfa for years, and who the car's previous owner trusted completely. So as far as I'm concerned, I am taking it to someone who knows what he's doing, but people here are telling me he doesn't. I'm not in the best position :s

It probably doesn't help that you're not very familiar with the engine yourself, so I think the message is getting lost in translation somewhere a bit.

If you trust your mechanic, ask him how much its going to cost, parts, labour & VAT to get the car fixed and if it seems like its worth it, then get it done. At least you can draw a line under it. If it seems to expensive then you can just move the car on as is, or look for somewhere else to fix it instead.

Some Alfa mechanics do not like to do anything different from factory, so a swirl flap delete they would not even consider, it would just be a new manifold if your existing one is leaking.

 

[gibot123]

"Remarkably (for an Alfa it doesn't. The HP fuel pump pulley has two holes in that allow 2 30mmxM6 bolts to fasten it to corresponding threaded holes in the support bracket behind. The pump can then be removed leaving the pulley in place, with the cambelt still tensioned and no risk of movement. So there's no need to touch the belts at all, just the top cam belt cover needs to come off for access to the pulley."

So excue my ignorance what is the pulley attached to once the pump is not there.
is there a bearing plate that the pulley is attached to or similar

 

[Pud237]

"Remarkably (for an Alfa it doesn't. The HP fuel pump pulley has two holes in that allow 2 30mmxM6 bolts to fasten it to corresponding threaded holes in the support bracket behind. The pump can then be removed leaving the pulley in place, with the cambelt still tensioned and no risk of movement. So there's no need to touch the belts at all, just the top cam belt cover needs to come off for access to the pulley."

So excue my ignorance what is the pulley attached to once the pump is not there.
is there a bearing plate that the pulley is attached to or similar

You bolt the fuel pump pulley to the fuel pump support bracket, then you can remove the centre nut that holds the fuel pump pulley onto the fuel pump itself. This keeps the cambelt on the pulley and keeps it tensioned etc while you remove the pump.

 

[gibot123]

Thankyou Pud . I was getting very confused. When I looked at it earlier I couldn't fathom out you could remove one without the other. Cheers

 

[luciano aliquo]

buddy i have spoken too couple of Makkies and some of them have no idea what a swirl flap is(sounds like your makkie) when u phone the dealer they say replace
That guy is not a Alfa Specialist no Specialist will clean a maf or egr with out a ecu reset
i owned my Gt for 4 years i have done everything myself from major sevice to shocks and wheel bearings, when i bought it it came from a Alfa Dealer a "Alfa Specialist" and i had to fix everything they worked on they even had the cambelt mark wrong it is at 9 oclock and not 6 oclock and that is Arnold Chaz South Africas leading alfa dealer
that is why Alfa has a bad name nothing to do with the car everything to do with SPECIALISTS

ask him if it is cracked if not buy the plugs a new manifold will do the same after a couple of years then u back where u started in his shop spending more money

this is by far the cheapest car u can drive if u have a proper makkie and not a Fitter, all your guy wants to do is fit new parts they are called Fitters and not Mechanic

 

[luciano aliquo]

i have to apologize for my rant, i hate people(mechanics) steeling other peoples hard earned cash and calling them selves Alfa Specialists

 

[ShadowArcher]

It probably doesn't help that you're not very familiar with the engine yourself, so I think the message is getting lost in translation somewhere a bit.

If you trust your mechanic, ask him how much its going to cost, parts, labour & VAT to get the car fixed and if it seems like its worth it, then get it done. At least you can draw a line under it. If it seems to expensive then you can just move the car on as is, or look for somewhere else to fix it instead.

Some Alfa mechanics do not like to do anything different from factory, so a swirl flap delete they would not even consider, it would just be a new manifold if your existing one is leaking.

Yes, my own ignorance is quite a drawback, lol. He's been decent with what he charges me (I do at least know how to use Google to find prices of stuff to check), so I'll wait and see what he says once he find a manifold - he says he has 2 cars there that might just be for breaking, in which case they have the right manifold for mine, so hopefully that will be the case. I'll just take it from there.

 

[gibot123]

New manifolds are about £150 Have a look on ebay you can buy them ready blanked too.
Look under 1.9 JTD , 1.9 TiD and 1.9 CDTI These are all Pierburg inlets

 

[luciano aliquo]

if u buy a secondhand manifold u will have the same problem just a lot sooner than a new one and you will have to pay for labour again

 

[JON156VELOCE]

Yes dont buy a standard used manifold, its false economy and you could be back where you are now in a few months. either a cleaned and blanked one is about £100 or a standard new one with the newer better design of flaps that will last longer is about £140.

 

[ShadowArcher]

So, finally he agrees that the delete is the way to go. I'm trying not to grumble at the price of a few little lumps of metal in the face of the savings