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Discussion Starter #1
I can't find Lauren's original thread about the oil leak from a 33 gearbox. I have just changed to oil in the 17v 33 gearbox fitted to my Minari. It was left to drain for 24 hours, both jacked up to angle the flow towards the drain plug and level on its wheels. Last night I refilled with fresh oil but could only get 2.8 litres in before it overflowed via the level plug. My hand book says the capacity is 3.4 litres (about 20% more).
Could this be part of the reason Lauren is getting leaks from the output shafts - overfilling?
Any suggestions? Should I jack my car up sideways so I can fit the other 600ml in?
Cheers,
Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #4
That is pretty much what I thought. My Minari gearbox is as dry as a desert on the outside - even after 1500 motorway miles over 3 days, being run flat out around the 'Ring for a couple of hours and being jacked up at acute angles in my garage for days on end.
The issue is - does anyone get 3.4 litres of oil into the gearbox before it starts to overflow, or is it common to use less? A full engine oil change usually needs pretty much exactly the amount of oil it says in the book.
 

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All I know, when I was changing the gear oil in my 33, I also read in the manual that I needed a bit over 3 liters and so I got 4 bottles - 1 liter each.

When I got to it, the box filled up with 2.something liters ! :eek:

I thought that I was doing something wrong. Changing the angle of the gearbox so it would fit more gear oil , did not help at all. :tut:

It's been like that for a long time now , and I did a second oil change not too long ago. Everything seems fine so I never asked why :rolleyes:
 

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Hi Mark - this is interesting. Because the filler plug is used to set the level of oil in the gearbox, the angle of the gearbox relative to horizontal is critical. You seem to have had the opposite experience to me - because my gearbox is nose-down at the front (2.5° to be exact, I measured it at the weekend), I managed to get over 4 litres in before the oil overflowed.

I guess the most obvious question is - was the car level when you refilled the oil? If it was jacked up at the front (for access perhaps), that would mean that you would have underfilled the 'box with oil, if your driveline angle was otherwise identical to a 'Sud.

I'd be interested to see how this turns out. I'm still planning to re-jig my engine mountings to increase the driveline angle in the Green Machine. Should be possible without major ructions, all I have to do is run the distributor rotated 90° to get clearance around the vacuum advance canister...

Lauren
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Hi Lauren,
Over 4 litres - that is a lot. I filled mine with the car lowered onto its wheels in a leval garage. I have a digital angle gauge ('borrowed' from work where I have to measure gravestone angles!). I will take a measurement off the lip of the gearbox sump pan and compare with yours. To the naked eye, it appears horizontal.
Watch this space!
Mark
 

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I had the same some months ago when refreshing gearbox oil on my sprint. Manual said it should fill with 3,7 (??) litres or so, but I only managed to get somwhere between 2.5 and 3 litres in. The car was dead horizontal, I checked that purposely. I don't know how much went in exactly because I also spilled something :( I found it a very irritating job, I have never milked a cow but I suppose it feels more or less the same - instead with a gearbox, you are trying to push the oil IN against gravity instead of milking it out...

(should have done it of course when the gearbox was still next to the car instead of under it. Stupid me...)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Sorry for the anorak info that follows!

1. To Lauren. The angle of my Minari gearbox is 0.4 degrees - clutch end down. ie. horizontal as near as makes any difference.

2. Gearbox capacities. Alfa themselves can't make up their mind how much a gearbox holds!

a. Alfa 33 Series 1+2 official workshop manual (the big white/red loose leaf folder) - 2.3-2.4kg 80/90 oil
b. Sud official specification (the thick green book) - 3.1kg 80/90 oil
c. Sud S3 owners handbook - 3.1kg or 3.4 litres 80/90 oil
d. 33 S3 owners handbook - 2.4kg or 2.6 litres 80/90 oil
e. Haynes Sud manual - 3.4 litres EP90 oil

I thought that Sud and 33 gearboxes were pretty much the same bar gearing and speedo mechanism. I got 2.8 litres in before it overflowed which matches neither set of figures.
Any comments?
Mark
 

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see, my manual also said 3,something litres and I also got "exactly" (hard to measure) 2.8 litres in. So I wouldn't worry!
 

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So , there you go !

If your car was horizontal, just fill it up with whatever in holds in, and write your own manual :cheese:

I'll do the same and write my own manual as well :p
 

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Sorry for the anorak info that follows!

1. To Lauren. The angle of my Minari gearbox is 0.4 degrees - clutch end down. ie. horizontal as near as makes any difference.

2. Gearbox capacities. Alfa themselves can't make up their mind how much a gearbox holds!

a. Alfa 33 Series 1+2 official workshop manual (the big white/red loose leaf folder) - 2.3-2.4kg 80/90 oil
b. Sud official specification (the thick green book) - 3.1kg 80/90 oil
c. Sud S3 owners handbook - 3.1kg or 3.4 litres 80/90 oil
d. 33 S3 owners handbook - 2.4kg or 2.6 litres 80/90 oil
e. Haynes Sud manual - 3.4 litres EP90 oil

I thought that Sud and 33 gearboxes were pretty much the same bar gearing and speedo mechanism. I got 2.8 litres in before it overflowed which matches neither set of figures.
Any comments?
Mark
Wow! that's quite a long list of conflicting requirements - and some specifications are measured by weight, not volume :wow:

Thanks for collating that lot together Mark!

I was using Mr Haynes as a reference, but I didn't stop to question whether the "fill up to the filler plug" statement was what the factory recommended, and if so, just how much oil that represents. Perhaps you are just supposed to put a measured 3.4 litres in and it doesn't reach the filler plug at all...

So your Minari is 0.4° nose-down? Interesting. Here are my final findings on the Green Machine...



So this is the Alfasud section drawing that was produced by the factory. You can see that the engine and transaxle are slightly nose-up in the car. I measured the angle relative to horizontal, and I get an angle of +2.29° (arctan of 0.04, which is the slope as near as I can make out).

So next I need to know what the angle of the drivetrain is in my chassis. This is the most informative picture I have...



You can just make out that the bottom of the gearbox casting is just slightly nose-up relative to the main chassis rail below it. I calculated this angle to be +1.79°

But the angle of my chassis relative to the ground is shown below...



Handy piece of kit, I use it for measuring camber and castor angles normally. So my chassis is -2.5° (nose-down).

So when I add it all up my drivetrain is -2.5° - (-1.79°) = -0.71° (i.e. still nose-down). When compared with the factory driveline angle the difference is +2.29° - (-0.71°) = 3°

So that is how much I need to change my driveline angle to match the factory drawings. However, if I just want to replicate Minari, I only need to change by 0.3° :D

Who wears the anorak now??? :rolleyes:

Oh, before we leave the subject altogether, here is a picture of my offside driveshaft following my abortive run to Stanford Hall last week...



...And here is the nearside for comparison...



...And this is the mess it makes after 230 miles...



Would someone be able to measure the angle of their Alfasud engine in situ on level ground? Perhaps measure using the top of the camshaft covers? I would really appreciate it!

Lauren
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I admit defeat!! When the arguement starts to include arctans then I am out of my depth these days (30 years ago it would have been second nature) The beer has obviously taken it's toll!
Still think you have overfilled your gearbox though.
Cheers
Mark
Have you seen the photo of your car at Shuttleworth in the AROC mag?
 

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I can see why you are concerned Lauren -- but at least it stops that side rusting :cheese::lol::cheese:
Seriously though, you would seem to be putting in quite a lot more oil than is recommended. I would be very tempted to drain it all out and refill with 2.8/3 litres max and see what happens before doing changes to engine mounting. It is splash lubrication in there, so as long as there is a reasonable amount it should be fine.
 

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Have you seen the photo of your car at Shuttleworth in the AROC mag?
Oh yes! Its one of a series of pictures taken by Theo Meinster, editor of the Dutch Alfa enthusiast magazine "Het Klaverblaadge" - I've sent him loads of details and he is putting an article in the July edition. I've been promised a copy - I'm really excited to see how it turns out. Theo gave me a copy of the quarter 4 2008 issue, it took me three days to get through it, and that was just looking at the pictures :D It really is that good. Makes "AR Driver" look like a junior school collage in comparison...

Thanks for all the advice guys - I agree I probably overfilled the gearbox - which is why I drained around a litre of oil out. I did drain even more just before AI at Brooklands, but I could actually hear the gears whining, so I relented and put a half litre back in. But you are right, the actual amount in there has not been calculated accurately.

Lauren
 

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Could the discrepancy in the quoted figures be the difference between 4 speed and 5 speed 'boxes?

If I remember correctly, early Suds came with 4 speeds, but al 33's were 5 speed - presumably the extra cog would mean you would need less oil to fill the 'box to the same level ...

(I do appreciate that lots of Suds were 5 speed too, maybe the info for the 5 speed Suds is tucked away in a supplement somewhere??)

Anyway, I would agree with Alfasixnut, as long as there is a reasonable amount of oil in there (2.6, 2.8 or 3 litres, whatever) that should be more than adequate for splash lubrication.
 

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Hi Supercharged - I've just finished checking everything over for tomorrow's (possible) trip to NAD - I've done all the geometry and found that my driveline angle is 4.5° down on the factory orientation. So I put the back of the frame on axle stands and jacked up the front until my driveline angle matched the 2.29° shown in the factory cutaway.

Then I checked the engine oil - sat on level ground, the dipstick showed halfway between max and min - with the factory driveline angle the level shows full. Then I took out the gearbox filler plug - no oil came out. I could feel the level about 5mm below the level of the plug, so I topped the oil up to the level of the filler hole. 250ml of additional oil.

While the car was up in the air I tried selecting the gears and the change did seem a bit slicker, possibly because the selector forks are now immersed in oil. Of course I won't benefit from this until I re-jig my engine mounts.

So I am hoping that with a bit more oil in the gearbox my 3rd gear selection will improve, although oil continues to dribble out onto the offside brake disc. Even the 15 mile run to Goodwood last Sunday was enough to leave splats around the engine bay. I am convinced this is due to the differential gears "churning" excess oil in that part of the gearbox as a result of the driveline angle. Trouble is, I've got so many shows on at the moment, I'm not going to be able to have a chance of fixing it anytime soon... In fact, I may as well see the season out before I do any radical re-design of the engine mounts...

So that's the story so far!

Lauren
 

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well, if its something you cant avoid, I believe its better you get a weekend off specifically for this reason, get everything you may need to do the job and get bussy and dirty !

If there's no good lubrication in your freshly rebuilt gearbox and you keep using it like this, the only thing you may achieve in the end is damaging it :eek:

So better miss a show and get this issue over with rather than risking a re-opening of the box :rolleyes:
 
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