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Discussion Starter #1
My niece has been on the cheerful London protest and I had a chance to discuss it with her last week. I can see where she’s coming from, as it were.
 

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No, but I'm fully behind them because to coin some age old wisdom, "a stitch in time saves nine" and we'll be lucky if there is still time to save life as we know it - or even remotely resembling as we know it.
Drastic change at international governmental level is required, but the enormity of the problem shouldn't stop us from doing the small things we can as individuals.
 

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Fossil fuels will return to being normal after the current rebellion?
 

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Why are asset managers investing in fossil fuel companies?
Fossil fuels will return to being normal after the current rebellion?
No, I think it's just short-termism.

The Guardian said:
The simple answer is because they make money. For now, at least. The world needs fossil fuels and will continue to need them during the energy transition, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Publicly listed fossil fuel companies remain among the most profitable companies in the world, so if you invest in an index tracker fund, like millions of people do, they will be there. You will get Apple, Google and Facebook, as well as ExxonMobil and Chevron.
 

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No. But I’m pretty thin on relatives. We do have a friend who is a bit that way inclined, but she is smart enough to understand that while they are well meaning, if the outcome they desire happened, it would be ghastly for everyone.

The stupidity for me centers around the anti capitalism message. Capitalism is what is keeping us alive. Take it away, and we end up burning trees to stay warm in the winter, don’t have access to medicines and live shorter, grubbier lives. If you want a few billion people to die in short order, bin capitalism, bin innovation, bin the ability to build our way out of problems.

They are naive idiots, but as the weather is less helpful for demos, we will see less of it over the next few months.
 

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They are naive idiots, but as the weather is less helpful for demos, we will see less of it over the next few months.
I'm sure that this must have been in the thoughts of the elite, during the marches and protestations of the Tolpuddle Martyrs; The Luddites; The Suffragettes, and all the many other groups that fought for change throughout the centuries.
 

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smart enough to understand that while they are well meaning, if the outcome they desire happened, it would be ghastly for everyone.
But not smart enough to realise that any system (eg untrammeled capitalism and consumerism) relying on constant growth and expansion within a limited space (ie planet earth) is not sustainable long term.
 

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Well, if you believe the simplistic ER narrative, you can start by getting rid of your cars!

Seriously, 'untrammelled capitalism' has brought the biggest global advances in poverty reduction, health, and liberty the world has ever seen.

Actually, it never is 'untrammelled' as it always operates in a regulatory environment.

As for the earth's capacity to accommodate growth, it is important to note that the proportion of income spent on 'stuff' (the production of which, it is argued, causes environmental damage) declines as prosperity increases. The real agenda behind a lot of 'green' groups is depopulation. Well we spent a lot of the 20th century and millions of lives fighting totalitarian ideologies that, in one way or another, sought to eliminate certain groups. Totalitarianism is the only way groups like ER will achieve their aims, and that is the real enemy of human progress.
 

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@rjwooll

”Actually, it never is 'untrammelled' as it always operates in a regulatory environment”

Remind me who puts these regulations together and who polices these regulations?

I have no faith in many of the regulatory bodies that police the major corporate players or government departments be it any of the utilities, police (met specifically and recently) BANKS, :lol: and by no means lastly, the twarts in the two houses.
 

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But not smart enough to realise that any system (eg untrammeled capitalism and consumerism) relying on constant growth and expansion within a limited space (ie planet earth) is not sustainable long term.
Let’s unpack that a bit.

We know they don’t like capitalism. What do they like? Well, I’m not really sure. Do they want communism Cuban style, state capitalism Soviet style or a full on dictatorship North Korean style? They need to choose. It’s not good enough to say Capitalism is awful without suggesting what is better.

Problem is that every time the human race has tried one of these alternatives, lots of people have ended up dead. They’ve died because either the regime had to kill them, or because the regime couldn’t keep them alive. If you want to reject capitalism, it’s not just the cars you have to get rid of. You get rid of the computers, as the ability to produce something like an i7 processor and retail it for $200 is pretty much the pinnacle of capitalism. Get rid of the computers, and our life expectancy returns to the 1960s, until all of the medical specialists that capitalism trained die (or go and do something else because there is no reward in doing medicine) and then we’re back in the early 19th century.

20 years ago we had a problem with lighting. It sucked a huge amount of power, and the idea that more of the world will demand electric lighting lead to the conclusion that all of the generating capacity of the world would be needed to keep the lights on. The non-capitalist answer? Sit in the dark, or build shonky powerstations that blow up. The capitalist answer - LEDs, that have become cheaper than the stupidly cheap tungsten bulbs they replaced. Everyone still has light, only it consumes 95% less power.

The biggest problem with these people is that we don’t know what they want. They don’t know what they want. Are there loads of problems with resource usage that need to be solved? Sure, and I think some targeted measures to make products more long lived would get plenty of support. But they don’t want that, they want to smash the system. It’s proper low end student politics. Thank god winter is coming.
 

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@rjwooll

”Actually, it never is 'untrammelled' as it always operates in a regulatory environment”

Remind me who puts these regulations together and who polices these regulations?

I have no faith in many of the regulatory bodies that police the major corporate players or government departments be it any of the utilities, police (met specifically and recently) BANKS, :lol: and by no means lastly, the twarts in the two houses.
I understand your scepticism, but democracy (and its regulatory institutions) seems to be the least bad system of government out there. What would your solution be?
 

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I think the strongest form of policing for companies is the market forces on them to be seen to be doing the right thing. In theory people will stop be the customers of polluting brands seen to be lacking integrity.
 

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I read somewhere that if the world's population was 500 million, then there would be nothing humans living normally (21st Century "western"/like today standards, I presume) could do to the planet that affected the climate.

Maybe XE need to draw up a list of the 7.3 billion people that are currently "clutter".

The future is going to have to tend towards "shrinking population"... 10 billion into a space that fits 500 million is not going to work, no matter how many vegans (and presumably vegan cats and dogs) there are.


Ralf S.
 

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I understand your scepticism, but democracy (and its regulatory institutions) seems to be the least bad system of government out there. What would your solution be?
If I had a solution I would have several larger houses and more cars/toys. :lol:

All I would ask is that the system be fairer, we all should have a voice that is listened to, we are not. I would imagine if the politicians or bankers occupied parts of London to air their grievances people in authority would listen.

I have dealt with regulators, banks and police, they hold you in utter contempt for daring to complain, they close ranks to bull**** you and often hide any pathetic sanction, if any, on the criminals they employ.
 

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we all should have a voice that is listened to
On the other hand, have you heard the crap the average person spouts? :lol:

Churchill said: The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter.

But he also said: Democracy is the worst political system - apart from all the others.

I think someone above hit on perhaps the only real solution which can work when you consider corporations (and peoples) self interest - a swelling and applying of public opinion which means that the ethical way is also the profitable way, because the majority won't buy their product if they aren't being ethical.

I see that ER are trying to raise awareness. But I also see that what they're mostly doing to achieve that is making the days of a load of ordinary people worse.
 

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I read somewhere that if the world's population was 500 million, then there would be nothing humans living normally (21st Century "western"/like today standards, I presume) could do to the planet that affected the climate.

Maybe XE need to draw up a list of the 7.3 billion people that are currently "clutter".

The future is going to have to tend towards "shrinking population"... 10 billion into a space that fits 500 million is not going to work, no matter how many vegans (and presumably vegan cats and dogs) there are.


Ralf S.
Consumption is topping out, so even though population is continuing to grow we will probably have a shrinking consumption / energy-use worldwide before too long. If you are interested in economics & statistics then its a great read:

https://econimica.blogspot.com/2019/07/how-this-plays-out-deceleration_39.html
 
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