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He had two whole years of Republican control of the House, Senate and Executive and didn't manage to implement his big stuff like repealing the ACA, building his stupid wall, reforming immigration etc. So it hasn't just been the Democrats opposed to his agenda. Don't forget the Democrats took back the House in a landslide despite egregious Republican gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement. I don't think it's going to look bad for them at all, I think they're doing the job they were sent to Congress to do.
 

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Based on how polemical and divisive US politics (among others.....) is becoming - I expect to see ***-for-tat impeachments coming for future presidents thick and fast. Like kids in a playground, the next time a Democrat gets into the Whitehouse I bet you any money that the Republicans will run an impeachment process in the first term just to show that they can do it too.

I have to say - I think Trump is an absolute ringpiece and a terrible president - but this impeachment is ridiculous and frivolous. The only principle that is being established is that impeachment will from now on be a legitimate political tool.
 

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I strongly disagree. If a president can use the power of his office to put his thumb on the scales of the next election then American democracy is dead. That's the principle at stake and it isn't frivolous. If the Republicans gin up an impeachment for the next Democratic president then the electorate is going to know it.
 

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I strongly disagree. If a president can use the power of his office to put his thumb on the scales of the next election then American democracy is dead. That's the principle at stake and it isn't frivolous. If the Republicans gin up an impeachment for the next Democratic president then the electorate is going to know it.
You could be right - but I wish a shared your faith in both the logic of the current process, and the capabilities of the future US electorate. I think the impeachment is very personally driven at Trump the individual, and I think the electorate are as partisan and divided as the politicians nowadays and will more likely be baying for the next round rather than being wary of it. It all saddens me.
 

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You could be right - but I wish a shared your faith in both the logic of the current process, and the capabilities of the future US electorate. I think the impeachment is very personally driven at Trump the individual, and I think the electorate are as partisan and divided as the politicians nowadays and will more likely be baying for the next round rather than being wary of it. It all saddens me.
The current partisanship is mainly driven by the cult of personality which is the Trump phenomenon and Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell, who really is an evil SOB. Neither is going to be around forever and Trumpism dies with Trump. There have been recent congressional and gubernatorial elections where candidates have tried to be more Trump than Trump and they have all lost. Thankfully the blend of narcissism, bullishness, god complex, notoriety and ignorance essential to the cult appears to be rare.
 

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I have to say - I think Trump is an absolute ringpiece and a terrible president - but this impeachment is ridiculous and frivolous. The only principle that is being established is that impeachment will from now on be a legitimate political tool.
Ringpiece :LOL:

We'll have to see what comes out in the trial, especially regarding Joe & Hunter Biden's business in Ukraine. I don't think anyone is going to come out of this looking good whichever way the Senate trial goes. I certainly don't think it is going to turn people who voted Trump last time around back to voting for whoever the Democract candidate is this time around.
 

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You could be right - but I wish a shared your faith in both the logic of the current process, and the capabilities of the future US electorate. I think the impeachment is very personally driven at Trump the individual, and I think the electorate are as partisan and divided as the politicians nowadays and will more likely be baying for the next round rather than being wary of it. It all saddens me.
Part of the problem is that everything is viewed through the prism of TRUMP. It is distorting, and the right thing can appear to be wrong. Populists do this. Legitimate, human, thoughtful opposition is reduced to kneejerk virtue signalling or politicking.
 

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Yeah but lots of Americans are glad Soleimani is dead. Riding roughshod over international law and stirring up tension in a region not exactly known for stability is a small price to pay.

At the end of the day, they've taken out one man. If he somehow thinks that everything will come up roses now, he's possibly more crackers than I thought.
 

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2020.....continuing on the tombola wheel of "populist" insanity......and I had the hope that humility and integrity might make a comeback......oops,sorry...that is seen as weakness.
 

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Yeah but lots of Americans are glad Soleimani is dead. Riding roughshod over international law and stirring up tension in a region not exactly known for stability is a small price to pay.

At the end of the day, they've taken out one man. If he somehow thinks that everything will come up roses now, he's possibly more crackers than I thought.
The man was a state-sponsored terrorist & politician all rolled into one. Blowing him up was no more or less justified than Obama sending in the Navy Seals to take out Bin Laden years ago - that being said there will be consequences. Whether the consequences of killing him will be worse than the consequences of leaving him alive, is something we'll never know. We actively tried to take out effective German generals in the 2nd world war, but abandoned attempts to assassinate Hitler after it became apparent that he was responsible for poor decisions that were being made. If Soleimani was an effective leader then Iran will find it harder to achieve its goals without him.

Not sure if detente with Iran was ever an option or not - isolate & embargo seems to be the only way the west can keep them from becoming more of a threat. Under the 3 years the nuclear deal was in operation they have grown richer, effectively taken over large parts of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon etc and invested the proceeds in conventional military hardware. Who knows what they have done with their nuclear weapons plans, the inspection regime doesn't seem particularly stringent.

Perhaps ratcheting up tensions with Iran is part of the USAs goal with regard to China - if the Strait of Hormuz is closed and oil prices double, America wins (as an oil exporter these days) and China loses.
 

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The man was a state-sponsored terrorist & politician all rolled into one.
How do you know this? I know that I would have limited sources that I could depend upon to be sure - but you could be right. Is he any more of a state sponsored terrorist than some Saudis who fund sunni extremists in the region or who have acted brutally in Yemen? Could we even be put in that ballpark with our lack of conscience about arming the Saudis for their activities in Yemen? Is there not a whiff of state sponsored terrorism about the Israelis? Perhaps our information sources are not so keen to portray these people in the same light.
US policy in the region has always been about self interest -but then when has it been anything else. Support of horrific individuals like the Saudis, Saddam Hussain among others is all in their past (and current) repertoire. Controlled destabilisation in the region appears to have always been their strategy. Currently they appear to be following a policy that favours Israel and Saudi Arabia -this dictates that Iran is hindered as much as possible. A major concern I have is that this strike is not actually part of a broader strategy at all.
Re the nuclear issue, whilst it is concerning that nuclear weapons could be in the hands of even more governments we seem to be relatively relaxed in comparison about India and Pakistan for christs sake! I also refuse to take lectures on the morality of who should have nuclear weapons from the only country on earth to have actually used nuclear weapons on a civilian population.
Your comment re the oil price could be as valid as any reason. It certainly does no harm to the bank balance of his fossil fuel supporters -forget about the human misery it will cause.
 

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How do you know this? I know that I would have limited sources that I could depend upon to be sure - but you could be right. Is he any more of a state sponsored terrorist than some Saudis who fund sunni extremists in the region or who have acted brutally in Yemen? Could we even be put in that ballpark with our lack of conscience about arming the Saudis for their activities in Yemen? Is there not a whiff of state sponsored terrorism about the Israelis? Perhaps our information sources are not so keen to portray these people in the same light.
US policy in the region has always been about self interest -but then when has it been anything else. Support of horrific individuals like the Saudis, Saddam Hussain among others is all in their past (and current) repertoire. Controlled destabilisation in the region appears to have always been their strategy. Currently they appear to be following a policy that favours Israel and Saudi Arabia -this dictates that Iran is hindered as much as possible. A major concern I have is that this strike is not actually part of a broader strategy at all.
Re the nuclear issue, whilst it is concerning that nuclear weapons could be in the hands of even more governments we seem to be relatively relaxed in comparison about India and Pakistan for christs sake! I also refuse to take lectures on the morality of who should have nuclear weapons from the only country on earth to have actually used nuclear weapons on a civilian population.
Your comment re the oil price could be as valid as any reason. It certainly does no harm to the bank balance of his fossil fuel supporters -forget about the human misery it will cause.
He was a named individual on both EU & UN sanctions lists for years (sorry can't find the source, someone on my Twitter feed posted a link to the EU archives which I read but I can't find the tweet now), for being leader of the Quds force, which have carried out bombing & terror campaigns all over the middle east resulting in many thousands of deaths. Really he should have been up in the Hauge on war crimes charges (along with plenty of Saudis and Israelis), but 'death from above' is much simpler than capture & trial. The only real difference between Israel, Saudi & Iran is that Israel/Saudi don't kidnap our citizens, capture our ocean freighters, hack our infrastructure etc. No doubt Israel/Saudi do those things, but they don't do them to us or the USA. We arm the Saudis because they are the enemy of our enemy, just like we sent tanks & food to Stalin who was busy killing millions of his own people. Stalin was not our friend and neither are the Saudis.

The USA is no angel of course. If you look at their actions around the world it is reminiscent of the UK from 1815 to 1914 - they're simply empire building / empire maintaining and trying to prevent the rise of a challenger using every trick in the book. Re: nukes, you can only stop people from having them when they don't already have them. Once they have them, there's not a lot you can do to take them away. I'd rather live in a world without nukes but if that isn't an option, I'd rather Western democracies also have them if relatively unstable middle eastern countries have them. Without getting into the rights and wrongs of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, there'd have been more dead Americans and more dead Japanese if they weren't used at the end of the second world war. And probably all of Korea and part of Japan would have spent almost the next 50 years living under the boot of the USSR too. It seems self-evident to me that it isn't in our best interest if more countries like Iran & North Korea acquire nuclear weapons, whether America is saying it or not.
 

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Obviously our current government, in such dire need of good favour as we exit the EU, will have to kiss Trump's arse on this.
I think we'd better get used to it as countless further humiliating circumstances will no doubt arise from the consequences of the worst example of abject stupidity the universe has ever witnessed - otherwise known as Brexit.
 

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At the moment, Donny could be ordering drone strikes against the UK and the likes of Raab would still be blowing smoke up his arse.
 

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