[markshaw]

Hi wondered if anybody could help, I have just bought a non running comp safari racer the car was buillt in the early to mid ninties by the Simmonites of Bradford West Yorkshire, it started life as a 2.5 V6 and was later changed for the Alfa 3.0 V6 12v with an OMEX management system set up and rolling roaded with a claimed 190BHP at the wheels by the previous owner, the previous owner got as far as taking the heads off the engine as he was told the stem seals had gone and that was causing it to smoke. So as it stands if everything is correct I need some stem seals and new head gaskets to get it going my questions are:

1) Does anybody know how to identify what year/model the engine came from so parts can be ordered (and where the engine number is as I presuem this would be the way to identify)
2) The 12v parts seem very expensive and much less available than the 24v, do you know any good/cheap suppliers of parts for this engine
3) If I was to just buy a replacement good engine and bought the 24v instead is the wiring, management, engine mounts and ancillary's the same on both engine to make it an easy straight swap.
4) any known problems with these engines (it has been stood for 3 years) I know to change the cam belt and pulleys, is there anything else I should replace

Any help would be appreciated

Thanks

Mark

 

[ChrisS]

Interesting find.

Engine type is part of the engine number, and can be found on the flat surface at the flywheel end of the left cylinder bank (left/right is a hangover from the early V6 days when they were fitted longitudinally). That said, many 12V parts are common...if you can get them. Look for 6410 or 6412 etc at the start of the number. Once you have that number, come back to us and I'm sure someone can come up with a suitable 'donor'.

EB Alfa are good for many of the bits. Avoid cheap pattern head gaskets like the plague Goetze or Spesso only IMO. Alfissimo International are good for more obscure parts too. Oil pump...best of luck! I've managed to get two in the past, both from Oz - check e-bay from time to time and hope to get lucky if you need one.

24V management is somewhat different or very different to the 12V depending on vintage of donor and not interchangeable either way...that said, you can run a 24V on the Omex OK given a suitable map as most versions have common sensors.

Some 12/24 parts can be changed - mounts for example are largely interchangeable but unless you get into swapping pulleys and bracketry, alternator for example mounts very differently....probably not. I have 12V alternator with 24V poly-v pulleys, 24V 164 'front' engine mount and A/C compressor, 12V rear engine mount. There may also be some minor issues around the 'rear' engine mount depending on which version you get. Same goes for oil fiter mountings - fundamentally the same, but later engines had a big 'lump' with stats and sensors built in. Nothing insurmountable though.

After a long layup, cambelt and tensioner bearing (if you can find one) but do make sure you replace oil & filter of course, and while you have the cambelt off, it would be worth priming the oil system by spinning the aux shaft with a drill until you get pressure. You might be forced to prime the pump manually at first by pouring some oil down the oilway from filter to pump.

Beyond priming the oil pump and changing the cambelt...make sure it turns over of course....you may be forced into having the injectors cleaned if they have gummed up...try it and see. If it's still running the dizzy and single coil for ignition, rotor arms and dizzy caps can be troublesome at times. Might be worth considering conversion to wasted spark if your ECU can drive it. A 155 V6 coil is a quick easy conversion.

Stem seals were a common problem...but so was valve guide wear. Not expensive to put right. 190bhp at the wheels for a stock 3.0? Flywheel perhaps. If it's modded at all, cams/compression then no problem.

They have an appetite for camshafts and exhaust followers. If the tops are off, carefully inspect the condition of the exhaust lobes on the cams and the surface of the followers - I can almost guarantee some signs of distress. In extreme cases, the followers dish and pit badly. You can get new custom cams or even get stock ones reprofiled if needed. Not cheap though. New followers...can be had, but hard to track down.

Early engines had weak exhaust rockers so keep the revs down. A stock or near-stock engine won't want to pull much past 6500 anyway, and IIRC, the rotor arm has a spring rev limiter in it as well??

Rear crank seal is probably leaking. No big deal, just messy.

All Alfa thermostats seem to have a penchant for sticking open at some point in their lives. Not problematic other than causing slow warmup and poor economy with increased engine wear of course.

...err, that's about it I think, unless anyone else has got anything to add.


HTH

 

[markshaw]

Thanks for the info mate, will have a look for the engine number at the weekend.

Interesting find.

Engine type is part of the engine number, and can be found on the flat surface at the flywheel end of the left cylinder bank (left/right is a hangover from the early V6 days when they were fitted longitudinally). That said, many 12V parts are common...if you can get them. Look for 6410 or 6412 etc at the start of the number. Once you have that number, come back to us and I'm sure someone can come up with a suitable 'donor'.

EB Alfa are good for many of the bits. Avoid cheap pattern head gaskets like the plague Goetze or Spesso only IMO. Alfissimo International are good for more obscure parts too. Oil pump...best of luck! I've managed to get two in the past, both from Oz - check e-bay from time to time and hope to get lucky if you need one.

24V management is somewhat different or very different to the 12V depending on vintage of donor and not interchangeable either way...that said, you can run a 24V on the Omex OK given a suitable map as most versions have common sensors.

Some 12/24 parts can be changed - mounts for example are laregley interchangeable but unless you get into swapping pulleys and bracketry, alternator for example mounts very differently....probably not. I have 12V alternator with 24V poly-v pulleys, 24V 164 'front' engine mount and A/C compressor, 12V rear engine mount. There may also be some minor issues around the 'rear' engine mount depending on which version you get. Same goes for oil fiter mountings - fundamentally the same, but later engines had a big 'lump' with stats and sensors built in. Nothing insurmountable though.

After a long layup, cambelt and tensioner bearing (if you can find one) but do make sure you replace oil & filter of course, and while you have the cambelt off, it would be worth priming the oil system by spinning the aux shaft with a drill until you get pressure. You might be forced to prime the pump manually at first by pouring some oil down the oilway from filter to pump.

Beyond priming the oil pump and changing the cambelt...make sure it turns over of course....you may be forced into having the injectors cleaned if they have gummed up...try it and see. If it's still running the dizzy and single coil for ignition, rotor arms and dizzy caps can be troublesome at times. Might be worth considering conversion to wasted spark if your ECU can drive it. A 155 V6 coil is a quick easy conversion.

Stem seals were a common problem...but so was valve guide wear. Not expensive to put right. 190bhp at the wheels for a stock 3.0? Flywheel perhaps. If it's modded at all, cams/compression then no problem.

They have an appetite for camshafts and exhaust followers. If the tops are off, carefully inspect the condition of the exhaust lobes on the cams and the surface of the followers - I can almost guarantee some signs of distress. In extreme cases, the followers dish and pit badly. You can get new custom cams or even get stock ones reprofiled if needed. Not cheap though. New followers...can be had, but hard to track down.

Early engines had weak exhaust rockers so keep the revs down. A stock or near-stock engine won't want to pull much past 6500 anyway, and IIRC, the rotor arm has a spring rev limiter in it as well??

Rear crank seal is probably leaking. No big deal, just messy.

All Alfa thermostats seem to have a penchant for sticking open at some point in their lives. Not problematic other than causing slow warmup and poor economy with increased engine wear of course.

...err, that's about it I think, unless anyone else has got anything to add.


HTH

 

[ChrisS]

Post us up a picture or two of the car - interested to see it.

 

[ChrisS]

When you get to putting it back together, use the cam timing template, not the marks on the cam caps. Template attached (all credit to the kind soul who created this). You'll find some fine scribe marks on the camwheel hubs.

You might also want to modify the camwheels to make them adjustable. Remove the locking pin and slot the holes a bit. Vital if it's had a CR lift by head skimming.

 

[markshaw]

See if this link works its what the guy I bought it off sent me, it probably not what you are expecting, it was a really quick car in its day it won Welsh hill rallys and loads of other events, where abouts are you in the country you sound like a good person to know!!!

https://picasaweb.google.com/111944922353717853662/NewFolder?feat=email#

Thanks Mark

 

[markshaw]

Not sure wether this is a good thing or not but the previous owner sais "Also have blanked off the hydraulic adjustment of the cam belt so you can manually adjust it and its not dependent on oil pressure"

Is this a normal mod

 

[Avocet]

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Mine's been blanked off for years. Oddly, it's actually a DE-tensioner, in that as the revs rise (and thus the oil pressure), it SLACKENS the belt. I think they just did it to extend the life of the belt between changes. I gues the biggest danger of it jumping a tooth is when the engine first fires up, or if someone stalls - both of which would happen at low engine speeds.

 

[ChrisS]

Hi Mark, thanks for the link....that's pretty much exactly what I was expecting from the Simmonites. Nice toy.

As avocet says, no problem with the tensioner mod. The hydraulic ones do tend to leak some/lots so blanking them off is a common mod. Either that, or converting to the later thermomechanical type, or various versions of a fixed tensioner. Just avoid setting belt tension too tight when then engine is cold. Or too loose of course!

I'm near Worcester, so a fair trek from you...but always lurking nearby a web browser.... I'm no kind of expert, just been fiddling with 12v motors for a while and picked up some scraps from people who know what they are on about.

 

[ChrisS]

Just spotted on one of those pictures, the dizzy poking out the side of the engine. That's typical of an alfa 75, so that could well be the source of the engine.....or just possibly they did a mix n match when swapping for the 3.0

The dizzy is driven off the aux shaft, which of course means it needs to be timed properly, unlike the 164 which has the dizzy off the end of the front cam. If you do prime the oil pressure by spinning this shaft, don't forget to re-time it

 

[markshaw]

Engine number is AR06412.022516 can anybody tell what it came out of from that, cheers Mark

 

[ChrisS]

That makes it a mid to late 12v 164. Say 1991 - I had a donor car of that age with the same engine type. That engine has some minor improvements like piston cooling oil jets. It's definitely a bit of a hybrid given the dizzy location, but that's cool.

 

[markshaw]

Engine images

Got some images today, its in a bit of a state do you think we might be better buying a 3.0 V6 24v seen as though parts are cheaper and they are fairly available, any thought???

 

[GhostyDog]

Yowza rust city, where in yorkshire you from? Neerheard of comp safari before, watched some vies on YouTube looks mental :thumbs:

Might pop along and watch if there's a local meet.

 

[markshaw]

I live at Dewsbury, this is my racer, the Alfa is obviously a cheap project to sort out over the winter then have a bit of fun next year.

Most of the race meets are in the midlands either Lincolnshire or Staffordshire, next one is the 24th and 25th September at Stone in Staffordshire, the event details are on the club site Northern Off Road Club usually get quite a few spectators.

 

[GhostyDog]

That thing looks evil, what category do you race in?

I'll keep an eye on the site, might pop along to a meet with some mates, Looks like it an e quite eventful

 

[markshaw]

Mine's a rear engined TD5 jsut over 200bhp and 350ftIb's torque goes like stink, coilover fox nitrogen shox, quick steer box, ashcroft shafts and cv's loads of mods, its really good fun but very expensive to keep it going the ground can be very harsh on the transmission!!!!

 

[CrispDust]

Looks like alot of work.
I think I would be going for a 3.0 24v if you can get your hands on one. Much more revvy engine than 12V IIRC.

 

[markshaw]

I think thats what I am thinking, are there any physical differences between the 12v and the 24v i.e. is the block exactly the same (I think the engine fitted will already have a conversion ring on the bell housing as the gearbox is a BMW getrag), anything else that may cause us issues

 

[ChrisS]

All the Busso V6 engines aeer basically(caution - weasel word allert!) the same block, so will fit your gearbox fine. There are some detail differences but no show stoppers. Obviously you'll need new exhaust manifolds, and the coolant system has the main connections just above the bellhousing on the 24V motors, so make sure you have some space there.

I'd think your best bet if you want to go 24V would be 156/166 vintage. The 24V 164 parts are even harder to find than 12V, plus, the 166 era V6 was the last and best in many small ways, not least the fact that they finally dumped the aux shaft so the belt wrap on the cam adjacent is now much improved.

The best of those would be a 147/156 3.2 GTA engine - box-stock other than exhaust, a 164 TB (that you already have) and an aftermarket ECU will make an honest 280bhp.

Alternatively, you could stick with the entire OEM ECU and drive by wire throttle etc and just have the ECU tweaked to make it work without the rest of the 166 attached. AlfaTuner will do that job for you I believe.

As noted, the 24V has a more high-end biased torque curve of course, but it still makes decent torque.

Some random things...unless it's been modified, you'll find a DM flywheel on all but GTA engines. Not a huge deal as you can probably stick your current flywheel straight on....and hope the balance is close enough.

Crank trigger on the later engines is (I think) a digital device, not an inductive passive one. No big deal, just need to know if your ECU can use it or not.

COP of course, so again, you'll need an ECU that can run COPS, or maybe convert to a 6 pole coil wasted spark setup.

Injectors are sized for sequential injection, so if you are forced to run batch by your current ECU, that might possibly make setting idle mixture a bit iffy....but I guess that won't be an issue!

If you do go 24V, you'll be needing a few special tools for doing cambelt etc. No big deal - pop over to Aftermarket Tools for your Alfa Romeo TwinSpark, JTS, JTD, V6 and Twin Cam Engines :: TotallyAlfa

err...I'll add anything else that crosses my mind.