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Paying more tax is not a worthy goal in itself. It needs to be invested productively. If it is just doled out as higher welfare payments within the same flawed system or used to create non-jobs it is counter-productive, it makes us collectively poorer. Yes you could argue it makes the poor richer in the present but it doesn't in the long run as people get stuck. This is where Labour governments always go wrong, they do tax & invest but they also borrow & waste and it drives down private/corporate spending to the detriment of GDP/jobs/prospects growth. Look at the recent past. We needed a term or so of Blair at the time, the economy was primed for it and Major had ran out of ideas. But after that all the extra state spending was like pushing on a string, the economy always disappointed and the deficits started growing. I despair when I look at all the wasted opportunity.
Well yes, obviously you need a plan with good systems in place and joined up thinking as well as adequate funding.

And I don't see rich people voting for a party to provide a slightly more comfortable poverty for the masses to live in as being anything other than self-serving. It is the bread & circuses of the modern age.
Hang on - first you suggest wealthy people willing to pay more tax are "virtue signalling":
Your comment on some wealthy people wanting to pay more tax, I always take this with a pinch of salt unless their actions back up their words (for example Bill Gates). Are they speaking from the heart, virtue signalling or just preaching to the choir? There must have been a reason they moved to a higher salary / lower taxation jurisdiction*. I also think there is a possibility that we are already beyond the peak of the Bell curve when it comes to tax rates vs revenue raised.
Then you say
And I don't see rich people voting for a party to provide a slightly more comfortable poverty for the masses to live in as being anything other than self-serving. It is the bread & circuses of the modern age.
It is certainly not "virtue signalling" (a hideous concept invented and deployed by those devoid of empathy) but I have already suggested that people who don't like stepping over beggars and homeless people would gladly pay some more tax if this could solve the problem, so I suppose you could call that "self serving", as long as you accept it simultaneously serves to benefit society as a whole.


* there can be many reasons why someone's career takes them to the USA, many of which have nothing to do with salary or taxes.
 

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... If it is just doled out as higher welfare payments within the same flawed system .... Yes you could argue it makes the poor richer in the present but it doesn't in the long run as people get stuck. This is where Labour governments always go wrong, ..... And I don't see rich people voting for a party to provide a slightly more comfortable poverty for the masses to live in as being anything other than self-serving. It is the bread & circuses of the modern age.
......I don't disagree in principle with welfare (having grown up in a single-parent household on Income Support in the days before tax credits), but I can see how trapping and stifling a welfare system can be if it is overly complex, generous but at the same time punitive and constraining. .......
You appear to have some super human vision here if you think it's possible to find the infinitely thin veneer of "welfare" that is acceptable.

You agree with a safety net of welfare, but not so much as to make it comfortable to be on it.

Well - Welcome to the nirvana that everyone wants - but as you point out, it's fiendishly hard to find.

There is a Labour approach which always overshoots in one direction, and the much evidenced Tory approach that basically looks to massively low ball the balance and to hell with the consequences.

In the Labour model - the consequences are that some people get annoyed that their taxes aren't used efficiently.

In the Tory model - people die in poverty.

Why - given the above balance - would ANYONE choose to take the Tory model?
 

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I haven't read the full report, but it looks like it was based on information for 1998-99 and the Telegraph is seizing an opportunity to lambast a government that took control on 1 May 1997, following almost 2 decades of Tory policy.

Have I misinterpreted?
That's an interpretation for sure.

Point I was trying to make is that people at the bottom of the ladder still live in poverty (and die) whichever government reside. The level of **** the real poor are in varies little as to make no difference. I never see a drop of homeless people under Labour.

I'm no blue flag waver by any means. But a Labour government with the current line up......no thanks.
 

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That's an interpretation for sure.

Point I was trying to make is that people at the bottom of the ladder still live in poverty (and die) whichever government reside. The level of **** the real poor are in varies little as to make no difference. I never see a drop of homeless people under Labour.

I'm no blue flag waver by any means. But a Labour government with the current line up......no thanks.
According to fullfact.org in 1998 homelessness in England was at just over 100,000, after 12 years of Labour government in 2010 the numbers had fallen to about 40,000.

https://fullfact.org/economy/homelessness-england/

By 2016 6 years of Tory government saw numbers climb back up to around 60,000.
 

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That's an interpretation for sure.

Point I was trying to make is that people at the bottom of the ladder still live in poverty (and die) whichever government reside. The level of **** the real poor are in varies little as to make no difference. I never see a drop of homeless people under Labour.

I'm no blue flag waver by any means. But a Labour government with the current line up......no thanks.
That's a deeper problem than party politics, of course. It's how we've emerged from industrialisation into consumer capitalism. I don't know the answer.

I suspect it is about least worse choices, hopefully informed by a tad of humanity as well as self-interest. I'm not especially confident when people are happy to shoot themselves in the head.
 

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That's a deeper problem than party politics, of course. It's how we've emerged from industrialisation into consumer capitalism. I don't know the answer.

I suspect it is about least worse choices, hopefully informed by a tad of humanity as well as self-interest. I'm not especially confident when people are happy to shoot themselves in the head.
Poverty will never be eradicated whilst the human species continues to breed like rabbits.

There was a theory that as people became more affluent, there would be a shift from large families to smaller. The population of Britain may well have declined to a level more sustainable, particularly now as we have lower employee volume companies.

But we appear to be allowing uncontrolled population growth, just to care for those of us who are living longer. And there is evidence, that our welfare system is exacerbating the situation.

I am not advocating a policy such as China’s, or that of Indira Ghandi, but a solution has to be found. Not only is our Planet running out of resources, but societies garbage is destroying it for every other species.

“Free love” has not worked and I continue to find it amazing that the head of the Catholic Church preaches proliferation of the species, whilst he himself remains celibate.

Time for another “Visitation of Black Death” I fear!
 

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Ive just returned to die in a ditch Britain to see we havent 'died in a ditch'

are there no riots to see ? is nobody even bothered anymore
 

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Ive just returned to die in a ditch Britain to see we havent 'died in a ditch'

are there no riots to see ? is nobody even bothered anymore
I think everybody is just exhausted. It's plain to see what a farce this all is, yet those who continue to espout the non-existent virtues are still bleating out the same rhetoric, leaving those of us who keep pointing out the facts tired, fed up, and getting less and less interested in taking the debate to those who refuse to accept facts. I think that's why this thread itself has waned as of late.
 

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And the tragic reality is that 4 years ago the EU and our membership of it was not a hot topic for most of us.
We all thought we had more important priorities to occupy our thoughts.

We all are sick and tired of it now, but the 'get Brexit done' mantra is also a lie, as if we push ahead with the fiasco, negotiations on trade deals will persist for 5 or 10 years.
The only way to end the pain soon is to "get Brexit UNDONE" :party:
 

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I think everybody is just exhausted. It's plain to see what a farce this all is, yet those who continue to espout the non-existent virtues are still bleating out the same rhetoric, leaving those of us who keep pointing out the facts tired, fed up, and getting less and less interested in taking the debate to those who refuse to accept facts. I think that's why this thread itself has waned as of late.

I think there is more than a little truth in what you say. I think it is classic of the the bulk of British Working Classes, whereby they will only believe what fits in with their particular prejudices.

Also, because of their "Historical Genetic Conditioning", they see explanations of complex issues as "Being Told", and they just don't like "Being Told Anything". But they are not particularly "Deep" in their efforts to understand anything, a function of not wanting to make an effort at anything and preferring the easy option in the vast majority of things they do.

And, as it is not "PC" to call foreigners "WOPS or Diego's" any more, they find other means of disparaging them, without drawing attention to the fact that they remain Racist.

A rose by any other name, would still smell as sweet. And a Racist is still a Racist, no matter what they choose to call themselves now.

I think, I have had a belly full of the British Electorate - Thank you very much! There are exceptions. However, not as many as I thought prior to this Brexit Malarkey.
 

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Also, because of their "Historical Genetic Conditioning", they see explanations of complex issues as "Being Told", and they just don't like "Being Told Anything". But they are not particularly "Deep" in their efforts to understand anything, a function of not wanting to make an effort at anything and preferring the easy option in the vast majority of things they do.
This in particular I've thought to be the case for some time. I was only discussing the issue, of the vast majority not wanting to use any extra brain power, with my dad the other day, and I think he had a moment of realisation of this being true.
 

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This in particular I've thought to be the case for some time. I was only discussing the issue, of the vast majority not wanting to use any extra brain power, with my dad the other day, and I think he had a moment of realisation of this being true.
Steady boy! I don't know your mother! :jester:
 

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I think there is more than a little truth in what you say. I think it is classic of the the bulk of British Working Classes, whereby they will only believe what fits in with their particular prejudices.

Also, because of their "Historical Genetic Conditioning", they see explanations of complex issues as "Being Told", and they just don't like "Being Told Anything". But they are not particularly "Deep" in their efforts to understand anything, a function of not wanting to make an effort at anything and preferring the easy option in the vast majority of things they do.

And, as it is not "PC" to call foreigners "WOPS or Diego's" any more, they find other means of disparaging them, without drawing attention to the fact that they remain Racist.

A rose by any other name, would still smell as sweet. And a Racist is still a Racist, no matter what they choose to call themselves now.

I think, I have had a belly full of the British Electorate - Thank you very much! There are exceptions. However, not as many as I thought prior to this Brexit Malarkey.
I’m curious, not argumentative. Can you name many countries you see as more practically aligned (ie, deep thinking, outward looking and receptive to new input) in their thoughts? I’ve wondered if Estonia might rate in this way.
 

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I�m curious, not argumentative. Can you name many countries you see as more practically aligned (ie, deep thinking, outward looking and receptive to new input) in their thoughts? I�ve wondered if Estonia might rate in this way.
I will get to that, however let me address what I percieve to be a very British problem.

We are just too grateful for small mercies.

As a means of exhonorating our failings: this inludes our Institutions, we adopt a "Oh well! Things could have been worse" attitude. And this encompasses everything, promply absolving all our failings.

Health service? "Well it is a lot worse in America and The Continent. They have to pay for theirs".

Actually, we pay for ours! It is not free!!

It is the same attitude throughout; our Education System, Local Government, Public Services, Our Democracy (joke).

The bulk of our kids leave school after eleven years, having taken in very little and the general response seems to be "Well Jimmy never was very academic." Probably never would be, when a large proportion of the population have devoted more time to creating children than they care about what they would like them to achieve.

We are always happy with second best, because there is always someone worse off. Our sporting achievements are "Bought" at great expense. Mutton heads get paid a fortune for kicking a ball around.

Celebrities are plucked from obscurity because the have a vocal range of half an octave. Vulnerable people are invited onto shows with smug superior gits who take great pleasure in humiliating them in front of an audience of several million.

Sporting hero's are "Elevated to The Lords", not because they have, or can contribute anything to our Democracy, but our "Ruling Elite", want to persuade us we are an "Inclusive Society", and not in the least riddled and ruled by the Upper Classes. It seems a small price to pay for elevating some of the unwashed, just to maintain the illusion. Just as long as the "Quota of Peons" is sufficienty small not to upset the way the elite choose to manipulate "Our Democracy" - joke.

But still, it is much worse elsewhere in the World, or so we like to persuade ourselves. Well it may be true. Not as any of the masses would know as they distain any understanding of "Johnny Foreigner" and couldn't even pick out where they come from on a map of the World!

But that doesn't matter, it is all bound to be worse than here, wherever it is they come from. Economically, that may be true in some cases. But "Societal Values"? I am not so sure we have any. That is why Politicians keep harping on about them. Not to instill any in us. Just to persuade us, they have some and therefore, we should elect them!

Illigitimate children, expenses scandals, lying to the public. Treating the Sovereign with contempt, simply for political advantage?

All part of our Wonderful Society. Ten years of Crippling Austerity, inflicted upon the weakest of our society, all abandoned, in pursuit of even greater control over the masses.

"Still, it is much worse abroad". We never had it so good!!!!
 

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I�m curious, not argumentative. Can you name many countries you see as more practically aligned (ie, deep thinking, outward looking and receptive to new input) in their thoughts? I�ve wondered if Estonia might rate in this way.
It is all too easy to be smug about Nations that not too long ago (1990?), were prisoners of the USSR. But how many of them speak english? How many Brits can speak Latvian, Polish, Romanian, French or German even?

And if one doesn't, how can one know that any of them do not have the virtues that you espouse as British?

We are superior aren't we? So superior that the Germans are fearful of Brexit, afraid we won't buy their cars! But of course, we don't make or own any substantial Car Companies - the bulk being foreign owned, so we will have to. No one is going to start manufacturing any time soon, given they will face tariffs on any of them sold outside the UK market.

We really are smart and that goes hand in hand with superiority. So superior, we have a massive imbalance of trade and have done for decades. Explain how that correlates with deep thinking, outward looking, receptive to new ideas?

Pulling up the drawbridge with our close neighbours hardly seems receptive or outward looking!

And I am still waiting for a single explanation as to why Brexit is such a good idea. On any single issue. If this blog is anything to go by, then the mass of the British public are not in the least open to new ideas. I dont think I have come across a group of individuals more vehemently opposed to seeing the other side of an argument or more reluctant to acknowledge the potential for things to go wrong .

Probably because they believe it is going to be worse for The E.U., their philosophy is "Never mind, things could be worse, we will cope, we always have".

And that is why things will, as they always have for the British, get worse. They never take ownership of their predicament, no matter what it is. Putting faith in people they know habitually let them down. They prefer not to take responsibility for anything. That way, they can always blame someone else.

It provides them with an "Answer for everything, whilst understanding nothing".
 

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Lots of cameras being pointed at thick northern types at the moment, in a tidal wave of unchallenged or untested "let's just get it done" media driven hogwash.
 
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