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Nothing here, there or anywhere that I have seen, heard or that has been printed makes me think that Dave and his mates care one bit about what the general public wants.
If Dave gets his amazing package and if it can be in no way voted down every time it is used it is still an utterly worthless package, if he does get something worthwhile I will happily bare my hairy ass at the next Rivington meet 😀
 

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Steady on, Mr Dibnah (post #20)- you'll destroy the whole basis of these threads...........at our last general election, through the general hotch-potch that is our electoral system, the Conservatives were elected with an overall majority. Yet I'd estimate that about 90% of the posts in the "politics isn't fun any more" thread are whinging about the activity of the Government.......;)

Well, when over 63% of the population didn't vote for the party that is overseeing such trauma.......what do you expect? Submission?
 

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I have no problem with trade agreements with Europe, as well as important stuff like intelligence sharing and counter terrorism, but we don't need them making our laws for us.
Ah, the magic "them" word. "We," i.e. the UK, have as much say in European legislation as any other member state. As for the idea that we sacrifice some power in order to be part of a larger unit, don't we accept that principle by being in the UK, by being in England, by being in Lower Snotting or wherever?

Or should I resent "them" (Scots and Welsh) for having a say in the UK? Should I resent "them" (other English people) when it chooses a government which my constituency didn't select? Should I resent "them" (other people in Orpington) if my MP is not the one I voted for?
 

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I want out...during the war we stood alone....we should again. Ok, I accept there's a chance things may get harder, there again we may just set a precedent. The 'money' will want to stay in, for all their ludicrous handouts.
At least we'll be able to decide on who's side we're on in any future wars, which as the EU breaks down becomes increasingly likely. Peace I'm afraid is unnatural and we're all living under a false sense of security.....with over population comes war(s)....checkout the history books.
 

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I want out...during the war we stood alone....we should again.
So we forget the French fighters who died so our troops could get off the beaches at Dunkirk?

We ignore the French fighters who dies saving our downed aircrews, even when the same crews may well have been bombing the towns those French people lived in?

We ignore the fact that more French people died in both WWI and WWII than British did?

We ignore the way that freedom fighters from every country in occupied Europe risked not only their own, but also their family's lives?

Why not pretend that all those foreign pilots flew, and died, in RAF planes.

And, most important of all, we ignore the simple truth that had the US not been pumping money, food, fuel and weapons into the UK we would have gone the way of the rest of Europe. Dunkirk got our troops out, but the Battle of the Atlantic kept us fighting long enough for the Americans to enter the war. Only at that point were we able to consider the invasion of Europe.




I should declare an interest here. My great uncle was shot down over Germany and some of the French underground railroad volunteers that helped him get to Spain were captured and killed.
 

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So we forget the French fighters who died so our troops could get off the beaches at Dunkirk?

We ignore the French fighters who dies saving our downed aircrews, even when the same crews may well have been bombing the towns those French people lived in?

We ignore the fact that more French people died in both WWI and WWII than British did?

We ignore the way that freedom fighters from every country in occupied Europe risked not only their own, but also their family's lives?

Why not pretend that all those foreign pilots flew, and died, in RAF planes.

And, most important of all, we ignore the simple truth that had the US not been pumping money, food, fuel and weapons into the UK we would have gone the way of the rest of Europe. Dunkirk got our troops out, but the Battle of the Atlantic kept us fighting long enough for the Americans to enter the war. Only at that point were we able to consider the invasion of Europe.

I should declare an interest here. My great uncle was shot down over Germany and some of the French underground railroad volunteers that helped him get to Spain were captured and killed.
No sir...You shouldn't forget, nor will I, indeed nor will anyone with a shred of respect for those people in such a dilema. I fear however that you are taking the phase too literally, whereas I was referring to the fact that Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium and France were all occupied and 'we' the british were .....well you know....it was an analogy.
 

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Ah, the magic "them" word. "We," i.e. the UK, have as much say in European legislation as any other member state. As for the idea that we sacrifice some power in order to be part of a larger unit, don't we accept that principle by being in the UK, by being in England, by being in Lower Snotting or wherever?

Or should I resent "them" (Scots and Welsh) for having a say in the UK? Should I resent "them" (other English people) when it chooses a government which my constituency didn't select? Should I resent "them" (other people in Orpington) if my MP is not the one I voted for?
We have a say in the legislation, but don't forget all other EU members have a say in the laws, and we are only one of 28 or so with a say.

I heard a very good analogy on the radio the other day.

If one person was alone on a bus they could go whichever direction they wanted to go. If there were 28 people on the bus then you would need to ask all of the others.

The EU is a one size fits all institution which doesn't exactly work for anyone, except perhaps Germany.

Your analogy with regard to the Welsh and Scots having a say in the UK is a bit flawed. As that is how democracy in the UK works. The EU isn't a democracy, and it isn't a club that we need to be part of.

I think also that if we stay in we will end up giving even more powers away, and might even be forced to join the Euro, as the EU fatcats will know that we cannot leave anytime soon.

If we leave it might be a bit tough at first, but I think we will emerge stronger. The EU isn't going to stop trading with us, as we buy more from them than they buy from us and they would have too much to loose.
 

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No sir...You shouldn't forget, nor will I, indeed nor will anyone with a shred of respect for those people in such a dilema. I fear however that you are taking the phase too literally, whereas I was referring to the fact that Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium and France were all occupied and 'we' the british were .....well you know....it was an analogy.
No, I understood exactly where you were coming from. The problem is that the analogy doesn't work.

We were not part of occupied Europe, true, unless of course you count the Channel Islands and their legal status is a bit weird even for a discussion on Europe. But, while we were the only part of non-fascist Europe to not be invaded, we weren't the only bit to stand up to the Germans. To say that we were separate then, so why can't we be now, is ignoring that we could only stay un-invaded due to the assistance of other countries.

That's like saying the Isle of Wight stands on it's own because it's separate from the rest of Hampshire. Yes, there's a bit of water between them and the mainland, but they couldn't survive as a flourishing economy without outside help.

To push the analogy further, as we're not part of mainland Europe, we could just close our borders and refuse to let anyone in or out. Could we do that? Yes, of course we could. Would we starve to death? No. Would we remain one of the world's top economies? No way! Cuba has so much going for it, but the US block on any financial transactions with any business, government or individual who has put money into Cuba (in theory - in practice they let the vast majority slip through) has left a country that should have been the most prosperous in the region as no better than a third world country.
 

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I want out...during the war we stood alone....we should again. Ok, I accept there's a chance things may get harder, there again we may just set a precedent. The 'money' will want to stay in, for all their ludicrous handouts.
At least we'll be able to decide on who's side we're on in any future wars, which as the EU breaks down becomes increasingly likely. Peace I'm afraid is unnatural and we're all living under a false sense of security.....with over population comes war(s)....checkout the history books.
Welcome to AO & the Way Off Topic lounge! :)

So, what "wars" were you thinking the UK didn't/can't get to decide on
participating in due to it being an EU member state?


Falklands?
Kosovo?
Former Yugoslavia?
Sierra Leone ?
Afghanistan?
Iraq (x2)?
Libya?
Syria?




:confused:
 

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But hey, who needs jobs when we're not in the EU anymore? It's a small price to pay for having control over the shape of your bananas.

German poll finds one in three firms would leave UK after Brexit | Business | The Guardian

I'm starting to find all of this a bit scary now. Hameron's Government could go down in history as the one that brought the end of the NHS and took us out of Europe. They could be studying this 5 year stint in 100 years time and asking the question "What the **** where they thinking?".
 

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I'm starting to find all of this a bit scary now. Hameron's Government could go down in history as the one that brought the end of the NHS and took us out of Europe. They could be studying this 5 year stint in 100 years time and asking the question "What the **** where they thinking?".
Have to say I usually find that with most governments there are policies that I agree with and those that I don't agree with -no matter which party is in power. Even with governments that I have not really found much agreement with on a policy front, I can usually see (often begrudgingly I have to admit) that they think that they have the best interests of the country in mind. With this bunch I can't see that at all. I can't see that most tory voters will see any positives from their policies (apart from that of not having a labour government). I strongly believe that their interests lie only with a narrowly defined elite which will have implications for the distribution of wealth in the country for years to come.
WRT the 'what the **** were they thinking' question I think that the answer to that is that Cameron has made a big misjudgement based purely on party political concerns. He has opened a bit of a Pandora's box and it could cost us.
 

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When I see an analogy I start to frown....

I heard a very good analogy on the radio the other day.......Oooh yes. Go on

If one person was alone on a bus they could go whichever direction they wanted to go. If there were 28 people on the bus then you would need to ask all of the others.

Noooooooo! It's not a bus. How about, if the EU was a cheese sandwich, then who would be the bread.....and where would we find the cheese.....hang on.....my crap analogy is more relevant than yours. Taxi!

The EU is a one size fits all institution which doesn't exactly work for anyone, except perhaps Germany.

yawn...what was that? Oh yes. Whatever you do, don't mention the war.

I think also that if we stay in we will end up giving even more powers away, and might even be forced to join the Euro, as the EU fatcats will know that we cannot leave anytime soon.

Which fatcats will we serve in future then? Market force fatcats? Bank fatcats?

If we leave it might be a bit tough at first, but I think we will emerge stronger. The EU isn't going to stop trading with us, as we buy more from them than they buy from us and they would have too much to loose.

You seriously believe that? Really?
:yes:
 

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mapalfa said:
"....is ignoring that we could only stay un-invaded due to the assistance of other countries"
I agree, that is very true.

We don't really have 'democracy' in the UK, (or indeed I'm not sure it actually exists), we have implied democracy....in that we 'think' we have it, whereas in reality the 'money' decides...the rest of us sheeple get bombarded by media (why are they allowed to do that?) and scaremongering/biased propoganda to bulldoze their wishes through.

IMO the trouble with the EU is that management is like all supersized organisations, they become unmanageable & inefficient, (at least by present methods) wasting/"losing" billions, taking from the poorer and giving to the richest. I know some good comes out of it as well, but that same 'good' could be effected with far fewer overheads, if overseen by a more answerable/transparent organisation......
 

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IMO the trouble with the EU is that management is like all supersized organisations, they become unmanageable & inefficient, (at least by present methods) wasting/"losing" billions
It's a safe bet to say there's inefficency, because all organisations are inefficient, large and small.

However, I keep reading everywhere the EU wastes our money and imposes unwanted laws, but no-one will give me a list of examples. There are bound to be some, but the question is how many and how significant?

If I were campaigning for exit I'd at least mention some.
 
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