Alfa Romeo Forum banner

41 - 60 of 14655 Posts

·
Vendor
Joined
·
45,291 Posts
Anyone who believes the general populous is capable of making a rational and informed decision, only needs check the comments on any online news story about Europe, Immigration etc. Reading the comments on the Kent Online news site and seeing how many thumbs up outright racist comments get, has me not only convinced that a large section the public cannot make an informed decision, but has me genuinely concerned for the future of humanity.
And yet we let them choose the government every 5 years. Crazy isn't it?
 
E

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
And yet we let them choose the government every 5 years. Crazy isn't it?
It's becoming more worrying when you see extremes of the political spectrum gaining ground, but it isn't exactly comparable. Whatever government got in (even Thor forbid ukip) you wouldn't have an individual making decisions solely based on their own opinion, and it would need to pass though the parliamentary process, particularly in the case of any changes to law. That's not the same as letting an ill informed person who wants to blame the EU on their failings vote on the subject directly.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
45,291 Posts
It's becoming more worrying when you see extremes of the political spectrum gaining ground, but it isn't exactly comparable. Whatever government got in (even Thor forbid ukip) you wouldn't have an individual making decisions solely based on their own opinion, and it would need to pass though the parliamentary process, particularly in the case of any changes to law. That's not the same as letting an ill informed person who wants to blame the EU on their failings vote on the subject directly.
That is my feelings on the referendum to leave the EU. My feelings is that even should we vote to leave, it will still have to go through a parliamentary process. We'll still have to negotiate some sort of disengagement deal with the EU, and then I think while all that is going on, there will perhaps be a final very-best-offer to stay in the EU after all. And then there will be significant pressure for the people to have a choice to leave the EU on X terms offered, or stay in the EU on Y terms offered. Especially as the prime minister & chancellor are both pro-EU, they will take any chance to give another referendum until they 'get the right answer'. The current referendum is flawed, because we only know what the terms of staying in the EU is, not the terms of disengagement.

As for the EU itself, lets face it - if there was no EU right now and we had to build one from scratch, today's EU is very very far from how anyone would want it, unless perhaps you were a non-elected member of the political class or a high up bureaucrat of some sort. It does massively need reform and if the threat of a large nation leaving is what is needed to kickstart the process then I think it would be worthwhile. Those wanting to hold it together will not want to see the UK leave as that could be the beginning of the end for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
38,319 Posts
I think it goes further than this. People like to see it as a one way street on so many levels, but it isn't. We are just as capable of working in the EU and I know many who have and are.

Yes. And also this is part of the "positive" aspect of the EU story that
tax-dodging, off-shoring foreign owners of UK newspaper want to suppress.

There has always been an agenda set by the UK press barons
and it's nothing to do with what's best for the UK general population.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,278 Posts
As for the EU itself, lets face it - if there was no EU right now and we had to build one from scratch, today's EU is very very far from how anyone would want it, unless perhaps you were a non-elected member of the political class or a high up bureaucrat of some sort. It does massively need reform...
This has become a sort of mantra: the EU must change! But what I have barely seen anywhere is - what change? I'd be genuinely interested to see a list of examples of awful impositions by "them" but (even though I know two UKIP officials) nobody I know seems to be able to provide one.

Every organisation must have something wrong with it, but what are these disastrous things the EU is doing to the UK?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,655 Posts
Forty years ago we signed up to a Common Market which was an arrangement for two way trade among the nations of Europe. What this has morphed into, without the general public having any say, given that all shades of government in the ensuing years were pro EU, is a target of a United States of Europe with a single currency. This is fine if we are prepared to accept the necessary transfer of resources from the wealthy areas to the poorer ones either through taxes to pay benefits or more directly from transfer of labour. Also it will require the population in general to feel European first and whatever their regional allegiance is second. This works in the USA where they are Americans firstly and then Texan, Californian or whatever second. However I am not sure the population of Europe is ready for this yet. In Italy, for instance, the North is unhappy about funding benefits or jobs for the South. Will the French accept the more flexible labour laws that most of Europe prefer?

On a personal level I certainly do not feel European rather than British or even more so English. A Common Market I would vote yes. A United States of Europe (as suggested by the treaty aim for "Ever closer Union" I will vote no.
 
E

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
That is my feelings on the referendum to leave the EU. My feelings is that even should we vote to leave, it will still have to go through a parliamentary process. We'll still have to negotiate some sort of disengagement deal with the EU, and then I think while all that is going on, there will perhaps be a final very-best-offer to stay in the EU after all. And then there will be significant pressure for the people to have a choice to leave the EU on X terms offered, or stay in the EU on Y terms offered. Especially as the prime minister & chancellor are both pro-EU, they will take any chance to give another referendum until they 'get the right answer'. The current referendum is flawed, because we only know what the terms of staying in the EU is, not the terms of disengagement.

As for the EU itself, lets face it - if there was no EU right now and we had to build one from scratch, today's EU is very very far from how anyone would want it, unless perhaps you were a non-elected member of the political class or a high up bureaucrat of some sort. It does massively need reform and if the threat of a large nation leaving is what is needed to kickstart the process then I think it would be worthwhile. Those wanting to hold it together will not want to see the UK leave as that could be the beginning of the end for it.
Kinda makes an "in/out" referendum pointless if you do that though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,293 Posts
The problem with the EU as it is now is that it is half baked. You either go for full fiscal and economic union, or you go for as little as possible. The current situation of "freedom of movement" + "different rules in every state" leads to incessant arbitrage. If benefits, healthcare and taxation were identical in Romania and the UK, because they had effectively the same government, then that would solve a lot of problems. There would be no rush to leave one country and go to another, other than to work. Problem solved - only I don't think most people would be prepared to equalise our standard of living with a load of new entrants and the other obligations that full union would create.

The EU has demonstrated catastrophic economic incompetence in Greece, that problem is absolutely not solved (never was solved if you lived there), it is simply contained and will strike at the most inconvenient moment. Another reason why full union is certainly not on my agenda.

I can't get excited about the kilos and bananas and pints. I get mildly excited by the absurdity of the CAP and the waste of money + expenses fraud that is Brussels. Makes our MPs look like a bunch of saints.

I'm not worried about Brexit if it happens - the EU has far more to lose if the exit negotiations turn sour. In no way do the Germans want to lose access to "treasure island" where they sell vast quantities of product. Our trade deficit would be improved no end. Loads of scare mongering here, and I do think that if the population voted for Brexit, the EU would come back with a far better set of improvements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,278 Posts
If benefits, healthcare and taxation were identical in Romania and the UK, because they had effectively the same government, then that would solve a lot of problems. There would be no rush to leave one country and go to another, other than to work.
I thought the various figures showed the benefits tourism thing to be a myth. The rush is to work, surely.

The EU has demonstrated catastrophic economic incompetence in Greece...
It has? What did the EU, as opposed to the former Greek government, get wrong? I'm genuinely interested.

Our trade deficit would be improved no end.
If we left???? A courageous view, methinks. Nobody can be certain but business and financial sector people have expressed views on both sides, but the vast majority who have spoken have called for Britain to stay in. Meanwhile the Bank of England's preparing for a collapse of sterling if we pull out, and no-one is doing anything to protect share values because no-one can.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,293 Posts
Outright benefits tourism is probably marginal. I would guess that low wage/hours working + tax credits is very attractive. Overall, if I was stuck in the back end of Romaina, I'd be looking at health care and standard of living in the rest of the EU and shipping out.

Greece? The problem is not solved or contained. Greece has several hundred billion in debt, zero chance of paying it back, and has rendered the ECB technically bankrupt. At the next whiff of a crisis, this will blow again. If they had lanced it 3 years ago, we would have had a 90 billion write off, it would have hurt, but it would have been controlled. Now it will be uncontrolled, because it will happen when the central banks are at their weakest. What they should have done is boot Greece out of the Euro, and taken the hit.

On the trade deficit, our balance of trade with the EU is a disaster. So there is zero incentive for the EU to cut us off - indeed, they will be desperate to keep us in. They have more to lose than us. I'm not saying it is all going to be easy, but the 'EU will cut us out and make trade really hard' meme is pure scaremongering.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,489 Posts
Steady on, Mr Dibnah (post #20)- you'll destroy the whole basis of these threads...........at our last general election, through the general hotch-potch that is our electoral system, the Conservatives were elected with an overall majority. Yet I'd estimate that about 90% of the posts in the "politics isn't fun any more" thread are whinging about the activity of the Government.......;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,189 Posts
I'm not sure Britain has a lot to lose by leaving, we will still trade with Europe and if we have to comply with eu regulation, well we need to comply either way. We are not in the single currency. we put more money into funding the eu than we get back out. Euro is a shrinking market for us, and we still buy more from them than they from us. We can still permit immigration so if we would like our skilled polish friends to come we can permit them but they may control things more and immigrants may not be permitted to draw on the social state and may need to pay for healthcare, housing etc. I'm not worried about that sort of thing as I have no intention of working in Europe and when I go on hols I have travel insurance. Nobody is saying we couldn't rejoin if the eu ever sorts itself out and I'm not sure that will ever happen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,262 Posts
Discussion Starter #53
Here is a link to an informative article on pre EEC UK and a potted history since; it's quite well put together. Although it doesn't say so in as many words it explains why the we cannot go back to the old Commonwealth markets.
BBC News - Goal difference
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,151 Posts
I'm not sure Britain has a lot to lose by leaving, we will still trade with Europe and if we have to comply with eu regulation, well we need to comply either way. We are not in the single currency. we put more money into funding the eu than we get back out. Euro is a shrinking market for us, and we still buy more from them than they from us. We can still permit immigration so if we would like our skilled polish friends to come we can permit them but they may control things more and immigrants may not be permitted to draw on the social state and may need to pay for healthcare, housing etc. I'm not worried about that sort of thing as I have no intention of working in Europe and when I go on hols I have travel insurance. Nobody is saying we couldn't rejoin if the eu ever sorts itself out and I'm not sure that will ever happen.
Not a lot of people know that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,023 Posts
Here is a link to an informative article on pre EEC UK and a potted history since; it's quite well put together. Although it doesn't say so in as many words it explains why the we cannot go back to the old Commonwealth markets.
BBC News - Goal difference
Very good summary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42,287 Posts
Post using ration books in past years, I don't really think being part of a greater Europe has been such a bad thing personally, for both our security and our overall selfish prosperity as individuals? :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,341 Posts
I think the fact that David Cameron hasn't managed any worthwhile reforn in Europe just goes to show what it has become.

An undemocratic, one size fits all waste of money, that is trying to achieve a united Europe.

The last person to try and unite Europe was a certain Mr Adolf Hitler.

I have no problem with trade agreements with Europe, as well as important stuff like intelligence sharing and counter terrorism, but we don't need them making our laws for us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
316 Posts
  • My wife is Portuguese.
  • I have a load of Euros sat in the safe as the M-I-L likes to leave them behind when she comes to visit.
  • My business is very largely dependent on import-export and quite a bit of that is through the EU and, therefore, not effected by import duty etc.
  • The best tenant we've had is a Polish plumber!
  • I want to live in a country where the politicians have legal controls imposed on them. The first ever controls imposed on the UK parliament came from Europe - before that the law and constitution was simply what the party with the majority said it was and :censored: the electorate!


  • I don't want British-born scumbags to be able to claim benefits after never having contributed, so why should I want foreigners to be able to claim them?
  • Freedom of movement was supposed to be about working, not about claiming benefits. That's simply a side-effect of EU anti-discrimination legislation.
  • We've swapped a democratically elected dictatorial parliament for a parliament that's now forced to comply with the court's wishes, but can be over-ruled by the court of an unelected body in Europe.

I like being in the EU from the point of view that travel is easier and, if we weren't in, I'd never have met my wife as she'd not have been recruited to work in the UK. I actually like the idea of the Euro, but acknowledge that it won't ever work unless national economic policies are transferred to the control of a central department and the ECB.

Greece is a bad example. They should never have been allowed in the Euro-zone to begin with. Their economy was not compliant, but figures were fudged to make them look like they were. The ECB and Euro-zone are now paying the price for that fudge. The only issue about Greece that does apply to us is that we were forced to help with the initial bailout. Having said that, while we would not have been directly effected by our actual currency tanking, all European currencies would have suffered, so we'd have been hit anyway. Add to that the fact that the City of London holds the VAST majority of financial underwriting policies on European businesses and banks, then bankruptcies in the Euro-zone will hit us hard.

If we leave we can always rejoin? Think again! If the kid who keeps saying you can only play with his ball if he's allowed to win wants another game of football, you tell him to :censored: off and buy your own ball! Don't forget, we were blocked from joining the EEC when we first applied. That was a direct retaliation for not joining when we were first asked to. Even if we were allowed to rejoin, it would have to be on the basis of accepting the rules that apply at the time, so we'd probably be bound by treaties that we're opted-out of now and almost certainly be forced to join the Euro.

We pay in more than we get out? Of course we do. You can't have 28 countries stick a 1 Euro coin in a machine and get a 2 Euro coin back. We've benefited in the past from European development funding, it's our turn now to pay for other people's. We want the Syrian refugees to stay in the region, so are subsidising this to the tune of billions. When are people going to realise that the same thing applies to dragging the poorer parts of Europe up to our standards applies too. Pay now to help them and reduce their need to move here in the future. After-all, look at the number of Polish workers who've moved back as their economy has got better.

I remember a law lecturer who spent a whole class saying how the only truly democratic processes in the UK flowed from Europe. He described the UK as the world's most democratic autocracy. It's still that way to a point - if a party is voted in with a true majority they can then proceed to do anything they wish to, including changing the very basis on which the next election will be run, the makeup of the voting electorate and the checks and balances provided by the second chamber. BUT, at least at the moment we'd have the possibility of running to the ECHR to try and have a law overturned as non-compliant with EU treaties. At the same time, we have thousands of small regulations and laws that are imposed on us without anyone really noticing or caring.

In or out? I'm honest not sure. In fact, to a degree, I honestly don't care - the wife is talking seriously about opening a practice in the UAE and I'm looking into the bureaucracy involved in moving my business to one of the Dubai free trade zones. In reality that's a long-shot, but now we've made the intellectual leap of investigating the logistics of this, we know it's a possibility if we need it.



On the original question. Will the jungle move to the UK if we exit?

Of course it won't, if they do get through France they'll cut the fences in Dover and run into the darkness. The jungle is there because of the barrier created by The Channel, it's not a holding camp for people who are waiting for legal entry, it's a place for them to stay while they look for another chance to sneak in. In theory, France could refuse to stop them leaving and simply force our border controls to pick up the pieces.

In reality, though, that few miles of water makes a huge difference. They can only get here by:
a) swimming
b) getting on a ferry/boat
c) getting on a plane
d) getting through the tunnel.

Swimming isn't really a problem and anyone who does make it that way should be given citizenship and put in the Olympic team straight away.

Planes can only manage a small number of stowaways, so checks on wheel-wells for frozen immigrants can deal with that one easily.

Stowing away on lorries and in cars is an issue for both the ferries and the tunnel, but ramping-up the security checks at the ports this side would deal with the vast majority of attempts, even though it would cause chaos to begin with if we searched every vehicle entering the UK.

There are only a certain number of points someone could get onto a ferry, so making the ferry companies legally responsible for every illegal that's caught would make them improve their security if needed.

Small boats could be tracked and searched on arrival, but that would take a huge increase in border controls and customs patrols at sea.

If the French were stupid enough to allow easy access to the tunnel, then they'd deserve to have it closed. It simply can't operate if people are walking it, so if I was a French official, I'd already be planning ways of bolstering access security at the tunnel in the even of a withdrawal of UK checks on the French side.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,827 Posts
The ECHR is not part of the EU apparatus. It was set up after WW2 to try to ensure nothing like that could happen again. Hence Russia also signed up to the ECHR.
 
41 - 60 of 14655 Posts
Top