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There appears to be a complete over analysis on here about this subject, when there is a simpler solution.
The real answer we need to be asking is.

Will we still be able to access cheap wine & beer? if yes, then we vote to leave. If no, then we vote to stay in.
 

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I agree with His Dibs[nah]. I don't really get involved with politics and take little interest in the EU and what it does and does not do.
I can see obvious pros and cons but asking me to decide what's best?
I work for an American company who sell devices to Europe and Asia. We have a manufacturing plant here and Germany as well as the US and Asia. I'm not totally sure how it affects this company. I'll probably ask someone who does :lol:

I should not be allowed to decide one way or the other though but I guess ultimately I would vote on how it affects the company I work for.
 

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In general, I would say that just about the worst way of deciding anything of National importance is to allow a public referendum.

I don't think people understand the concept of Democracy.

Democracy doesn't mean everyone has to get their own way. The whole point of a democracy is that you vote for REPRESENTATIVES who then REPRESENT the views of their constituencies in government. We vote for these representatives because (a) we look to get sensible people who can make a call on our behalf based on a collective understanding of the bias, nimbyism and prejudice that needs averaging out, and (b) they are supposedly dedicated to the task and can therefore spend the time and effort to study the subject and make the right decisions after discussion and debate.

By dropping back to plebiscites like this (and the Scotland debate) we are allowing our representatives off the hook. We let them say "ooh - it's complicated, there's too many different opinions and it's too hard to keep you all happy". If I wanted to spend my days/nights reading up on the pros/cons of EU exit I'd have become a politician. I didn't do that because I thought I didn't need to as I would vote in someone who could do that bit and represent the consolidated views of the people of my area. I would then live with the consequences of that because I am normal, and accept that is what happens in a democracy.

But oh no.... We can't possibly have to live with consequences any more. We all need to be heard. We stand posturing with our hands on our hips saying "I didn't vote for this. I thought we lived in a DEMOCRACY!!"

So that means that the entire spectrum of the Great British Public, from high falutin' country squire to lowly wandering village idiots and all flavours in between now get to tick a box and have a 'phone in' vote on something that the vast, vast majority won't understand or bother to research.

Why not just disband parliament and setup a phone line and an SMS centre and put every single decision required every day to run the country to a 50 million vote-off and see what sort of God-awful dogs breakfast we can make of the place.

Maybe at work I will try this. I will say that it's much fairer if the whole department makes every decision. I, as manager, have deemed myself incompetent (probably rightly so) and from now on every invoice for approval, every request for holiday, every enquiry about who can have a parking space and every decision on what project or activity we should do next will no longer be my job as manager to decide - but will in fact now be decided by all staff texting in A for Yes or B for No and then I can sit and look out of the window and when the place goes to pot I can look back across the department and say "Well it was you lot, not me".....

Brainless nonsense. God help us for what sort of precedent this sets. I used to laugh about The Peoples Republic of Surrey, but I genuinely wouldn't rule out even more nonsense of this sort after Scotland and now Brexit.

Can't someone just do their job and lead.
Good God, FINALLY someone with some sense!! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

If it were possible to "like" this post more than once, I would do it.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
I totally agree with what Fred says in his post. I doubt that any govt wants to be the one that was judged by history to be the one that took the UK out of something that was actually quite good in retrospect. However, due to Cameron's weakness and desperation to get re-elected and to engage the right wing, the little Englanders he has made this promise of a referendum.

One of my main concerns is that the electorate will make their decision on xenophobic issues, immigration, and putting the GREAT back into Britain, reducing bureaucracy I guess the populist issues that the man/woman in the street understand and the real and more important issues will not get out and be explored.

I am not saying that the EU does not need reform I think that it does and my hope is that out of all this there are some reforms that benefit the EU as a whole and not just the UK.
 
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We live in an age of information, and sadly as a consequence misinformation. Couple this with the points raised by Fred and this how we have politics in the state we do, how the likes of Trump are doing so well, far right groups like Britain First have gained their massive following, and how a protest party like ukip has morphed into something hideous yet worryingly popular.

To me the EU debate and the points on a referendum raised by Fred are summed up by a comment I read elsewhere, where someone made the succinct point that if we left the EU BMW would still sell us cars. A comment that misses the issue by a wide margin. While I may not have all the facts myself the question to me really is; if we leave the EU then given time and using the car analogy, why would the likes of Toyota, Honda, Nissan want to continue to manufacture vehicles in the UK? If we are outside the EU, where is the incentive to continue here, and with real issues such as an exponentially rising global population what is to stop the EU legislation that has made it economically sensible to setup factories here cutting us off to ensure jobs are moved to the EU?

I don't think any of us whether intending to vote yes or no in the referendum can categorically state we understand the bigger picture.
 

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We live in an age of information, and sadly as a consequence misinformation. Couple this with the points raised by Fred and this how we have politics in the state we do, how the likes of Trump are doing so well, far right groups like Britain First have gained their massive following, and how a protest party like ukip has morphed into something hideous yet worryingly popular.

To me the EU debate and the points on a referendum raised by Fred are summed up by a comment I read elsewhere, where someone made the succinct point that if we left the EU BMW would still sell us cars. A comment that misses the issue by a wide margin. While I may not have all the facts myself the question to me really is; if we leave the EU then given time and using the car analogy, why would the likes of Toyota, Honda, Nissan want to continue to manufacture vehicles in the UK? If we are outside the EU, where is the incentive to continue here, and with real issues such as an exponentially rising global population what is to stop the EU legislation that has made it economically sensible to setup factories here cutting us off to ensure jobs are moved to the EU?

I don't think any of us whether intending to vote yes or no in the referendum can categorically state we understand the bigger picture
.

Unfortunately I don't think most of our political representatives can either.
And most of them care more about pandering to popular opinion as they perceive it.
Most of us, including politicians, act out of what we perceive to be self interest, but calculating and predicting where this self interest might lie (both in terms of individuals and that of the UK as a Nation) in the medium to long term is fiendishly difficult.

That being said, I agree with Sterzo's earlier post that cooperation is almost always better than non-cooperation.
Better in with a voice and hope to be a positive influence imo.
 

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In general, I would say that just about the worst way of deciding anything of National importance is to allow a public referendum...
...
Can't someone just do their job and lead.
It's a long time since I have seen a politician actually lead and try to positively shape public opinion (and I don't include Blair's lying about the WoMD in Iraq). Most politicians now react to public opinion. Unfortunately much public opinion forming is done by a select group in parts of the media. So prepare for many more inane headlines as the pubic opinion forming gathers pace ahead of the referendum.
 

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I think it is a good thing that the public are being consulted on this.

It makes a change from politicians totally ignoring what the general population wants.

If the politicians continually ignore the will of the population you then end up with extremist or fringe parties getting huge shares of the vote.


I don't agree that the population ins't smart enough to make such an important decision and that the politicians are elected to do it. After all we are smart enough to pay tax to keep the politicians in jobs, and if alll mainstream parties think the same way then we hardly have a choice.

Also saying that the public are not fit to choose the referendums outcome is only one step away from saying they are not fit to choose a government. Then before long you have a dictatorship.

There needs to be proper campaigning on both sides for this, if one side is suppressed, or if the other uses scare tactics then that really isn't fair campaigning.
 

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I think it is a good thing that the public are being consulted on this.

It makes a change from politicians totally ignoring what the general population wants.

If the politicians continually ignore the will of the population you then end up with extremist or fringe parties getting huge shares of the vote.


I don't agree that the population ins't smart enough to make such an important decision and that the politicians are elected to do it. After all we are smart enough to pay tax to keep the politicians in jobs, and if alll mainstream parties think the same way then we hardly have a choice.

Also saying that the public are not fit to choose the referendums outcome is only one step away from saying they are not fit to choose a government. Then before long you have a dictatorship.

There needs to be proper campaigning on both sides for this, if one side is suppressed, or if the other uses scare tactics then that really isn't fair campaigning.
I am arguing that there's a big difference between "being consulted" - i.e. having your say through the normal democratic process (writing to your MP, supporting lobby groups, attending public debates etc) and having a referendum. Where do you draw the line? Do you want a referendum on the budget every year? What decisions do you entrust to your elected MP versus those you want a public referendum on?

Regarding this point:

"I don't agree that the population ins't smart enough to make such an important decision"

I'm afraid I disagree. I've met a few of the population. In general, the percentage who are both smart enough AND have invested the time and effort in evaluating the breadth of issues and making an informed choice is, I guarantee you, very small.

And finally....

"There needs to be proper campaigning on both sides for this, if one side is suppressed, or if the other uses scare tactics then that really isn't fair campaigning" -

Yes. That's the point of this thread. There won't be.
 

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Prepare for the influx of booted out expats.

There'll be about 1,000,000 of us coming right atcha!!!

We won't have contributed jack **** recently, but will be expecting all
the goodies of the UK social security. House, Big TV, Free healthcare....
:p

Now c'mon, we all know that is not going to happen, You can get residency permits for virtually everywhere in the world now. Dunno who's the biggest scare monger, You or Cameron.
 

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Why should EU countries suffer 10,000s
of UK citizens profiting from EU benefits
if the UK is no longer in the EU???


These are the effects that no one
wants to think about.

They just want to protect their British
heritage and values: The pint. The great British sausage. Being ripped off by big business. :thumbs:

"Expats. Thousends of 'em!" :eek:


Mark.
My.
Words.


You can get residency permits for virtually everywhere in the world now.
No you really can't. The freedom of movement we
have throughout the EU just makes you believe
that it's easy to get a work visa workdwide. It is not
 

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Once again, Fred's words echo my own sentiments.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Why should EU countries suffer 10,000s
of UK citizens profiting from EU benefits
if the UK is no longer in the EU???


These are the effects that no one
wants to think about.

They just want to protect their British
heritage and values: The pint. The great British sausage. Being ripped off by big business. :thumbs:

"Expats. Thousends of 'em!" :eek:


Mark.
My.
Words.




No you really can't. The freedom of movement we
have throughout the EU just makes you believe
that it's easy to get a work visa workdwide. It is not
This is an angle that is seldom explored, like never. What would the effect on expat Brits be on Brexit. Would they be expelled or would they have to reapply for residency in their country of current residence. What would we do with the thousands of Poles, Portugese and French that live and work here. Would they continue to work or would we send them packing?
 

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I guess I'm in the category of not really knowing which is best, in or out? One of the masses who is a bit of a Dumbo' all round when it come to politics and deep meaningful discussions thereof? :(:

But I feel that with certain nations beating war drums not too far distant from us Europeans, that being part of the EEC collective who are also part of NATO with US, is no bad thing? :rolleyes:

Probabably not a very influencial view from the likes of meself, but I got along very well with all of our brothers in arms whilst serving in Europe?

Yep' underneath it all I am British/ English/ European, and have no problems with that being a simple minded fellow at heart? :D
 
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I am arguing that there's a big difference between "being consulted" - i.e. having your say through the normal democratic process (writing to your MP, supporting lobby groups, attending public debates etc) and having a referendum. Where do you draw the line? Do you want a referendum on the budget every year? What decisions do you entrust to your elected MP versus those you want a public referendum on?

Regarding this point:

"I don't agree that the population ins't smart enough to make such an important decision"

I'm afraid I disagree. I've met a few of the population. In general, the percentage who are both smart enough AND have invested the time and effort in evaluating the breadth of issues and making an informed choice is, I guarantee you, very small.

And finally....

"There needs to be proper campaigning on both sides for this, if one side is suppressed, or if the other uses scare tactics then that really isn't fair campaigning" -

Yes. That's the point of this thread. There won't be.
Anyone who believes the general populous is capable of making a rational and informed decision, only needs check the comments on any online news story about Europe, Immigration etc. Reading the comments on the Kent Online news site and seeing how many thumbs up outright racist comments get, has me not only convinced that a large section the public cannot make an informed decision, but has me genuinely concerned for the future of humanity.

This is an angle that is seldom explored, like never. What would the effect on expat Brits be on Brexit. Would they be expelled or would they have to reapply for residency in their country of current residence. What would we do with the thousands of Poles, Portugese and French that live and work here. Would they continue to work or would we send them packing?
I think it goes further than this. People like to see it as a one way street on so many levels, but it isn't. We are just as capable of working in the EU and I know many who have and are.
 
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