[Spacenut]

Hi guys! After an uneventful trip to NAD in the Green Machine, I discovered that the engine had blown most of the oil in the sump out of the left cylinder bank. There's no evidence of head gasket failure, so I think the oil is blowing out of the cylinder head-to-cam carrier gasket under pressure. However, as I now know, it is not possible in any way to replace this intermediate gasket without removing the cylinder head bolts, and thus the cylinder head, so now I need to ask some questions about cylinder head replacement.

I've got a part-used FAL head gasket set, which has the necessary parts to do the job. I assume the head gasket itself is resin-impregnated so does not require application of gasket sealant? Or does it? Also, would this gasket require the two-stage torque-down process to be followed (torque, run for ~100 miles, loosen off and progressively re-torque), or is it a "fit and forget" type of thing nowadays?

What's the advice for today's boxer engine re-builders?

Thanks guys!

Lauren

PS - as you can see, I'm taking it down to the wire again, if I want to get to MITCAR this year!!!

 

[Fluffyduff]

Hi guys! After an uneventful trip to NAD in the Green Machine, I discovered that the engine had blown most of the oil in the sump out of the left cylinder bank. There's no evidence of head gasket failure, so I think the oil is blowing out of the cylinder head-to-cam carrier gasket under pressure. However, as I now know, it is not possible in any way to replace this intermediate gasket without removing the cylinder head bolts, and thus the cylinder head, so now I need to ask some questions about cylinder head replacement.

I've got a part-used FAL head gasket set, which has the necessary parts to do the job. I assume the head gasket itself is resin-impregnated so does not require application of gasket sealant? Or does it? Also, would this gasket require the two-stage torque-down process to be followed (torque, run for ~100 miles, loosen off and progressively re-torque), or is it a "fit and forget" type of thing nowadays?

What's the advice for today's boxer engine re-builders?

Thanks guys!

Lauren

PS - as you can see, I'm taking it down to the wire again, if I want to get to MITCAR this year!!!

Im doing one at the moment (refitting a twin carb engine is easier than trying to sort out the single weber engine in the sud:lol

No sealant needed and I never got round to retorqueing the heads on the 16v. Its still going strong so Im planning on a fit and forget approach on the 8v too.

 

[Guest]

Also, would this gasket require the two-stage torque-down process to be followed (torque, run for ~100 miles, loosen off and progressively re-torque), or is it a "fit and forget" type of thing nowadays?

Well I don't know about the other raised questions but when my Alfasud 1.3 engine was rebuild last October, my mechanic told me to cover at least 500 miles and take it for a re-torque.

Hope you soon get rid of this annoying engine head problem.

 

[brit01]

500 miles and take it for a re-torque.

Yes I heard this. Unscrew 1/4 turn and re-torque.

Is this done with a hot engine??

 

[smusician]

Hi guys! After an uneventful trip to NAD in the Green Machine, I discovered that the engine had blown most of the oil in the sump out of the left cylinder bank. There's no evidence of head gasket failure, so I think the oil is blowing out of the cylinder head-to-cam carrier gasket under pressure. However, as I now know, it is not possible in any way to replace this intermediate gasket without removing the cylinder head bolts, and thus the cylinder head, so now I need to ask some questions about cylinder head replacement.

I've got a part-used FAL head gasket set, which has the necessary parts to do the job. I assume the head gasket itself is resin-impregnated so does not require application of gasket sealant? Or does it? Also, would this gasket require the two-stage torque-down process to be followed (torque, run for ~100 miles, loosen off and progressively re-torque), or is it a "fit and forget" type of thing nowadays?

What's the advice for today's boxer engine re-builders?

Thanks guys!

Lauren

PS - as you can see, I'm taking it down to the wire again, if I want to get to MITCAR this year!!!

dont use sealant on a cylinder head it bakes and goes like super glue once had an hillman imp someone had tried to stop blowing a headgasket on they used sealant i had one hell of a job to remove the cylinder head!!!

 

[brit01]

There's no evidence of head gasket failure, so I think the oil is blowing out of the cylinder head-to-cam carrier gasket under pressure. However, as I now know, it is not possible in any way to replace this intermediate gasket without removing the cylinder head bolts, and thus the cylinder head, so now I need to ask some questions about cylinder head replacement.

+1 don't use sealant. I think my inlet manifold had sealant in it. Took about 3 days of soaking, scraping, soaking/scraping to get it clean, let alone trying to pry it apart!

Also what type of gasket do you have on your cam supports?

I'm putting a paper gasket on my new rebuild. The old original one was a thin plastic film.

Not sure which is best.

 

[smusician]

+1 don't use sealant. I think my inlet manifold had sealant in it. Took about 3 days of soaking, scraping, soaking/scraping to get it clean, let alone trying to pry it apart!

Also what type of gasket do you have on your cam supports?

I'm putting a paper gasket on my new rebuild. The old original one was a thin plastic film.

Not sure which is best.

far as i know paper gaskets 4 mechanical followers(early engines) plastic film ones 4 hydraulic followers(later engines) if it had plastic film then i would stick to those!

 

[brit01]

if it had plastic film then i would stick to those!

mm.. now you've got me concerned. But what difference would it make?

The thickness maybe I can think of only. The paper would I imagine create a wider gap and maybe affect the contact between the lobe and tappet?

Not sure if I can get hold of a plastic film one here.

 

[Guest]

Is this done with a hot engine??

No with cold one. Had to leave the car in the garage overnight.

 

[brit01]

+1 don't use sealant. I think my inlet manifold had sealant in it. Took about 3 days of soaking, scraping, soaking/scraping to get it clean, let alone trying to pry it apart!

Also what type of gasket do you have on your cam supports?

I'm putting a paper gasket on my new rebuild. The old original one was a thin plastic film.

Not sure which is best.

far as i know paper gaskets 4 mechanical followers(early engines) plastic film ones 4 hydraulic followers(later engines) if it had plastic film then i would stick to those!

I'm just about to instal my heads to the block with paper gaskets on the cam supports.

Do I need to halt the project and try to find film gaskets?


Guy Croft and his team are saying paper ones are just fine, whizzman even used just silicon without a gasket on the 8v boxer.

Also to note the paper gasket that was supplied in a kit for my series 2 1988 is very thin like the previous film gasket.

This set also has a paper one.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ALFA-ROMEO-33-1-7-8V-HEAD-GASKET-SET-/390174572929?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5ad8378181#ht_622wt_905&clk_rvr_id=252285954517

 

[Spacenut]

Hi Brit - I would think the paper gasket would be fine, as long as you reset your valve clearances to suit.

Hmm. I'm getting some mixed opinions here. But by majority vote, it looks like there should be no gasket cement on the head gasket (check), although if I were to use some it would be the non-setting type (Stag Wellseal on order, goes on with a brush its so thin), and also I should plan on re-torquing the head with a cold engine after 500 miles (check).

Any more for any more? If I don't get this done in the next week I will have to add MITCAR to the long list of shows I have missed this year

Lauren

 

[brit01]

as long as you reset your valve clearances to suit.

I have hydraulic tappets. nothing to set.

 

[Guest]

CLARIFICATION: 500 miles refers to low town speed but for motorway driving you may need to extend up to 1000 miles as the main factor here is engine working hours and not actual driven distance.

 

[Spacenut]

I have hydraulic tappets. nothing to set.

D'oh! I knew that!

I guess the same argument applies, I'm sure the lifters have enough range to compensate for the difference in thickness. As to which type of gasket is more effective, I don't know - what I do know is that my engine managed to blow 2-3 litres of oil through the paper gasket that is there now, so I won't be taking any chances and will be applying sealant to its replacement!

Lauren

 

[Spacenut]

CLARIFICATION: 500 miles refers to low town speed but for motorway driving you may need to extend up to 1000 miles as the main factor here is engine working hours and not actual driven distance.

Thanks Nicolas, I will take that into account if I go to MITCAR (about 280 miles of motorway running on the A34/M40)

Lauren

 

[markp2]

Lauren - I have used a spray on 'copperslip' type sealant on my head gaskets for the last 25 years. I tighten the heads down to correct torque with oiled threads and leave them. I don't loosen and retorque. So far (probably tempting fate here), I have never had a head gasket failure on an engine I have built.
The spray sealer comes off easily with a solvent.
I put all the other gaskets on 'dry' except the sump where I use an RTV type silicone sealant.

Your oil loss from the cam box is worrying. There should not be any pressure in there. The cams run in an oil bath and there is a large return hole for the excess oil in the centre of the head. Was the engine rebuilt before fitting to the Nova? Have you any sign of a build up of 'black sludge' which may have blocked the return hole?

Brit - as long as the paper is a similar thickness to the plastic 'neoprene' type used by Alfa then is should be OK.

Cheers,
Mark

 

[brit01]

Brit - as long as the paper is a similar thickness to the plastic 'neoprene' type used by Alfa then is should be OK.

thks Mark. yep both are very thin and around the same thickness. Nothing significant that would effect the valve clearance in my opinion.
The end caps were always paper and never leak.


The seller (The gasket shop) told me they had been selling the one with the paper gasket even for the hydraulic verson for 10 years and never had this question before and never any complaints.

 

[Spacenut]

Lauren - I have used a spray on 'copperslip' type sealant on my head gaskets for the last 25 years. I tighten the heads down to correct torque with oiled threads and leave them. I don't loosen and retorque. So far (probably tempting fate here), I have never had a head gasket failure on an engine I have built.
The spray sealer comes off easily with a solvent.
I put all the other gaskets on 'dry' except the sump where I use an RTV type silicone sealant.

Your oil loss from the cam box is worrying. There should not be any pressure in there. The cams run in an oil bath and there is a large return hole for the excess oil in the centre of the head. Was the engine rebuilt before fitting to the Nova? Have you any sign of a build up of 'black sludge' which may have blocked the return hole?

Hi Mark - thanks for your reply. The answer to your question regarding the rebuild status of my engine is yes... sort-of. The engine itself was a brand-new, unused warranty replacement unit. But when it was started for the first time there was loads of white smoke coming from the LH cylinder bank. This was traced to a cracked inlet valve, which was replaced with one salvaged from my '78 engine. So the LH cylinder head has been off the engine in the past.

There is no sign of sludge build-up in the cam box, and no evidence that the return hole is blocked. With regard to the evident oil pressure, are the camshaft bearing journals not supplied with oil under pressure? I assumed that one of the oilways between the cam box and the cylinder head was leaking. Otherwise (like you) I would find it hard to explain the volume of oil loss.

As a result of the chassis work I have been doing there has been some paint overspray onto the LH cylinder head - its all clean at the joint between the cam box and the cylinder head, the surface is permanently slick with oil (whereas it is dry at the cylinder head-to-block join), and the LH driveshaft and wishbones are liberally coated in the stuff too, which is what you would expect as they are directly behind the cylinder bank.

Whatever the actual nature of the problem, the cylinder head is gonna have to come off

Lauren

PS - I like the idea of aerosol gasket sealant

 

[johnboy]

Hi
Did both heads on my 16v never retorqued them, that was 7-8 years ago

 

[brit01]

No sealant needed and I never got round to retorqueing the heads on the 16v. Its still going strong so Im planning on a fit and forget approach on the 8v too.

I'm fitting my heads in a week or two.

I will torque them to the required spec and leave them. Most people have had no ill effects.

Only if I see some leakage I will consider re-torquing them.