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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone have a baffled sump for a 16valve?? A lot of the 33 race cars must have had them over the years. Any help appreciated.
 

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hey all
on the same topic, does any one have any drawings/pictures of their baffled sump??
I need to buy/make one of my own for my Sud to use in motorkhanas
any help/advice would be great
thanks
 

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Have a look on slightly techncal 33 pages in motorsport section and there is a thread specifically about this subject.
I am planning to do a horseshoe in a standard sump with extension pipes to feed head oil back around the foot. Will post some pics up when its done.
Any idea why the baffle plate slopes down in a 16V? My old Sud sumps have a flat baffle plate.
rsfruitbat
 

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I have made 6 Baffled sumps now for the 16v cars in the arca championship and they really dont need to be any where near as technical as putting all the extra piping in. You just need as a minimum to run steel plate which is upright and follows the countour of the pan inside the sump but leave a 3mm gap between the bottom of the sump and the stell in place and tack it in. does that make sense?
 
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I have made 6 Baffled sumps now for the 16v cars in the arca championship and they really dont need to be any where near as technical as putting all the extra piping in. You just need as a minimum to run steel plate which is upright and follows the countour of the pan inside the sump but leave a 3mm gap between the bottom of the sump and the stell in place and tack it in. does that make sense?
think i see what you are achieving, kind of making little compartments to trap the oil and stop it sloshing around to one side whilst cornering. the small gap at the bottom will allow the oil to travel back to the pick up area, but is enough resistance to slow it down so it can't shoot to one side. i have seen other sumps made with "trap doors", little hinged flaps that mimic a one way valve so they let the oil back to the pick up but prevent it moving away, no need for that on this engine? i guess if you have made so many without problems then that is good enough :thumbs:
any pics of the inside ? i would guess that care has to be taken with the positioning and height of the baffles to prevent contact with the crank :rolleyes:
 

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Just a "by the way" ..
On the straight six 2600 alfa engine that I used to race, there was a "trap door" hinged plate in the ribbed alloy sump as standard!
It was one of the several things on the engine that really impressed me about Alfa engineering way back in the 70's
 

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Hi Alfaholic 75. Sounds like we are talking about a similar thing. Attaching a horseshoe piece of metal along the edge of the std baffle plate? Same as I asked in my earlier reply, why does the std baffle plate slope to the rear as well as in to the centre. They didnt on the Suds.
I was going to put the extra piping in to get as much oil onto the oil pump foot as possible. Without doing that do you extend the horseshoe to underneath the drain so that this oil is fed onto the foot rather than the wrong side of the baffle plate?
I also have an Autodelta baffled sump that came off a works car. Very nice but quite complex. A cast 2 piece aluminium affair. Problem I have got is to fit it I need a one-off exhaust manifold. Its a toss up between a fancy manifold or the time to fabricate a winged baffled sump in the long run.

rsfruitbat
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Alfaholic75, everything you say makes sense to me but looking at my sump, the pan does not do a complete 'u'/horseshoe shape due to where the oil pump sits(as i'm sure you are aware). If the baffle is only fitted along the edge of the pan will it effectively stop oil surge up the oil return hose on that side?? Hope that makes sense, hard to explian without visuals. Please let me know your thoughts.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Some one on another forum had this picture of their standard sump, it has extended pipes into the sump from the oil return pipes. They say it is standard but it is different to mine, does any one know what model/year these were fittted to?? This design seems a good idea to me to stop oil surging back up the oil returns. Any thoughts anyone??
 

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That is similar to what I was thinking but with the horseshoe aswell. Life is never easy. Tried fitting straight pipes last night but they foul on oil pump :cry: . They will go in but then you can get sump off again :tut: . I will have another go and try and angle them forwards like in your picture. Ultimately having had a good long stare at it I dont think it would be a big problem not to have the pipes. Looking at where they are positioned they are below the max dipstick level with engine at rest. I wonder what level oil drops to in the sump when engine is running. Max is about 10mm below the block and on my engine crank doesnt intrude into sump area at all.
Might be a lot easier if you are concerned to make some hinged manhole covers for pipe ends in sump. Could do that on extension pipes if decide to go that way.
I havent seen a std sump with those pipes on before. If they are std could they be off a 145 /146?

rsfruitbat
 

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i bought 2 race cars with sumps done differently, the first had the big winged sump with the flaps inside which was a great piece of kit but it held 8 litres of oil which in my exparience so far was excessive, also the car always breathed very heavy with so much oil so i got rid of it and the car was far better off with out it. The second car had virtually the same sump as the one in the picture above. This is probably the way to go really however on the ones i have done i didnt bother as by just putting the oil into the middle of the sump with the horseshoe shape baffle ensured lots of oil was there anyway and the movement of oil was resstricted enough. this year alone there has been a over 150 20 min track sessions with out any issues so i guess the piping is not needed? Oil can go back up the return pipe on the drivers side yes but the amount of oil left in the sump will still be far more than needed. Also the horseshoe shape that goes to the front of the sump on the passenger side but not to the front on the drivers side is the exact profile i have follwed with the baffle. you could continue it to the front if need be which i did do on the last one and it appears to make no difference.

Hope this helps:)
 

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Oh the other thing we discovered was that the 16v wear out big end bearings far quicker than the 8v irrelevent of what sumps are on the car so bear in mind to change them more often than not. I.e i change mine every 4th race probably excessive as they are not yet showing signs of wear but they are dirt cheap at the moment from alfa so better safe than sorry
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for the info, I am about to rebuild by engine, where do you get your big end and main bearings, is it from an alfa dealer? As you are building your engine so often could you let me know what type of rod bolts you use and where do you get them. You must be well practised at rebuilding your engine, any tips would be welcome. Thanks
 

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Thanks a lot for the feedback
ill probably try what alfaholic75 has got - just with the baffle following the horseshoe.
another question - does the baffle plate have holes in it or is it just using the small gap to the floor of the sump to baffle it??
many thanks
 

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Anyone got a view on the merits, or otherwise, of an accusump?
 

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Holy grail or poisoned chalice?
Has anyone ever dry sumped a boxer successfully?

Alfaholic75 - bit confused by "Also the horseshoe shape that goes to the front of the sump on the passenger side but not to the front on the drivers side is the exact profile i have follwed with the baffle. you could continue it to the front if need be which i did do on the last one and it appears to make no difference".
Rear is different on horseshoe, dont understand bit about front. Could you explain a bit more please.

rsfruitbat
 

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I actually get them all from an alfa dealer as they are all still available and are dirt cheap at the mo as they are trying to get rid of stocks in Italy I believe. When you order them you want the blue bearings as they are the best fit regardless of the wear on the crank ( they are not actually blue just marked with a blue pen but the the best size bearing if you cant work out the exact size of your crank)

As for big end bolts I use the same set 3 times as they are not stretch bolts, in fact the ones I have in at the mo are on there 4th use (that I know of) the trouble is you can not buy new bolts from alfa. you could try arp but the ones I got from them didnt fit and the thread was wrong. If you are rebuilding then I would suggest doing it properly. I would certainly get the bore honed and secondly I can get hold of the correct big end bolts that are new however the heads of the bolts are allen key so the block will need very minor machining to make them fit, once this is done you can put brand new bolts in every time if you wish and they are only about 40 quid.

Depending on how much money you have will depend on what I would advise. Also if time is not an issue a know a man who is very very cheap but does top quality work, he is just very slow as its done in his spare time its not his main business. He has done the work for the last 4 engines I have done and all are performing perfectly and making very good power for the budget.

As for the baffle- no I havent put holes in the baffle I just make sure there is around a 3-5mm gap around the bottom edge. There is no precise science in this as each one I have done differently and not worried if the gaps have been bigger as the whole idea is to restrict the movement. Oh when you trial fit the baffle ensure you know where the oil pump actually sits in the sump as the top of the horse shoe shape will need to be set back a fair bit from the edge of the plate you are welding it to for the pump to fit. Does that also make sense?

RSFRUITBAT- Sorry I was refering to the wrong end off the sump. where I put back I meant front and where I put front I meant back, I was typing whist refering to the pic above which is obviously wrong:tut: lol
 

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Discussion Starter #18
'I can get hold of the correct big end bolts that are new however the heads of the bolts are allen key so the block will need very minor machining to make them fit, once this is done you can put brand new bolts in every time if you wish and they are only about 40 quid'
How does the block need machining to accomodate these rod bolts?

if time is not an issue a know a man who is very very cheap but does top quality work,
I'm keen on being able to rebuild the engines myself but what sort of cost do you think I'd be looking at to have him rebuild just the bottom end??(PM me if you prefer)

Thanks for all the info.
 

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My local machine shop modified my con-rods to take the ARP bolt thread for about £10 a rod so no more problems. As the bolts are taller with the special washers the inner block face had to be relieved a bit to allow the crank to rotate as the head of the bolt was kissing the bottom of the block face on the opposing side. 10 mins with a dremel. Got my last set of ARP bolts off ebay for about £40. Did this mod on my 1600 8V. Revved it to 8 - 8500 without any problems and used that engine for about 3yrs before deciding to go down 16V route.

rsfruitbat
 

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The same as rsfriutbat has put, its just the bottom of the bore that needs machining or can be done with a dremel,its only 2 or 3mm you need to take off so that as the crank turns the bolt doesnt catch on the block. The guy that supplies the big end bolts also does the engine work. The bolts are the exact same as the original alfa ones other than the head has been changed to allen key. I think the bolts are £36 all in so slightly cheaper than the arp ones and made from the same grade steel. It just depends on what way you would like to go.

I can certainly give you the number of the guy so you can have a chat with him. But in my opionion i would give it a go your self. At the end of the day if you cant do it then you can pay someone but at least you tried.

Now when you take it apart you need to mark everything. the conrods and caps should be numbererd and the numbers go back together. also you need to make sure you know which way up the markings are on the piston face. when clean they should already be marked with a triangle and make a note of which way up the triangle is for when you put them back in. this is vitally important. also you need to know the correct procedure for tightening the caps and the correct tightening torques. As well as the main cap screws and transverse screws. It really is just like doing a big mecano set. When you dismantle it make a note of verything including which bolts go where and do what. The first time i did i put each set of bolts in a seperate bag or box and marked what they where. If you would like any more help, details, advice then please do pm me.

Once you have taken everything apart and got the block done make sure you get everything properly cleaned as any tiny spec of dirt can cause issues so make sure your assembly area is clean too. But most importantly dont be daunted its really not as hard as people make out. its just a set procedure and having the correct info.

Good luck
 
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