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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just had a daft (or perhaps stupendously sensible) idea.
My 147 will be 3 in April and therefore I have to make the balloon payment under my finance deal, hand the keys back or trade it in. On the basis that I'm broke (new stair carpets again!) and I can't justify a new car. I had been working on the assumption that I would keep the lovely 147 and go and borrow the balloon payment from the bank and pay it off over say 3 years. (this is less than I pay monthly now)

My wife runs our main family car so the 147 is to mainly to get me to work, the football, errands and of course for fun!

It suddenly occured to me that I could sell the 147 (or hand it back if the figures are the same) and go and buy the stunningly beautiful Bertie 2000GTV that someone I know is selling for approximately the same money as the 147 is worth/ I owe.
I could then go and buy a really crappy old punto or similar for a couple of hundred quid and insure it 3rd party to get me to work in bad weather and run the GTV as my fine weather and weekend toy.
My theory, apart from getting a stunning car is that although I'm still going to have to make the payments to the bank, the Bertie shouldn't depreciate if I really look after it. If its as good as I think it is, the maintainance costs should be lower than the 147, it's tax exempt, insurance will be loads cheaper on a classic policy etc, etc.
Plus of course I've always wanted, sorry, drooled over one!

If I just refinance the 147 I'm just pouring good money into a fast depreciating asset that is going to be subject to increasingly higher maintainance costs as the years go by.
The only draw back I can see is that I might have to keep throwing away the banger runaround and spending out on a 'new' one. Oh I'll also have to clean out my garage to keep the Bertie in and I'll have to convince Mrs Nervous that its the best idea since Isaac Newton decided to have forty winks under an apple tree.
What have I missed? It sounds too good to be true. I reckon on doing say 6000 to 8000 miles a year in the Bertie or is that too cruel?
What do all you guys who run them think please?
 

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is the balloon payment worth more than the car? When my missus' Polo was in a similar situation her balloon payment was more than the car was worth so she handed it back rather than continue to pay, the company then told her she could buy the car back when it goes through Auction so she could get a bank loan for a smaller amount at a better rate, it would end up a few k less than what she owed to on finance and could get her car back, its an odd situation but maybe you could do the same, it would have saved her about £2k, in the end I gave her my old motor so she didn't need to by one but its an idea.
 

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Bloody hell!!! You spend 4 months worrying about where nervous is, and then crash bang wallop he appears on the ochre chaise longue in the Classic Lounge with a fantastic idea and some new stair carpets.
:rolleyes:
How's it going?!
;)
The idea is great and totally foolproof if
- you can clear the garage
- you can convince the missis
- the GTV is in pretty solid nick
- you can convince the missis

My classic insurance is about £130 a year and the documents say unlimited mileage and I can commute to work in it. £100 - 150 seems typical, often including breakdown cover. Tax free is for cars built pre-1972 so don't assume a 2000GTV is tax free as they only came out in 1971 (I think). Depreciation as you say should be minimal PROVIDING you can keep it in good nick. Driving them regularly is great for the mechanicals, but less good for the body, so you can't win. They are remarkably comfortbale and civilised for 35 year old cars. OK the steering is a bit heavy and the ventialtion a bit pants, but they are not as primitive as you would think and much quicker than everyone expects!
:D
 

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ah, Nervous, what you need is the benefit of my car buying advice ;)

If you buy the Bertie, for goodness' sake, use it. And don't get an 'absolute' minter, or you'll get precious about it and that causes all sorts of anxiety.

I think you should go for it. But then this month, I have mentally bought two cars, decided to keep the Clio, sell the Clio, and now I want a Brera. :)

g
 

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Car buying advice from g.
:eek: :cheese: :cheese: :cheese: ;)
If he's nervous now, think what he's going to be like after you've finished with him!
:eek: :lol:
Ask him if he's thought about a Merc 6.9 V8.
;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
......and isn't it just a lovely comfy chaise longue in here. Not so sure about the colour though and you must really do something about those old chintz curtains!
I think the real problem as Rick as correctly identified is not the tax, insurance, the finance, maintenance, the iron oxide bodywork, the iffy ventilation or the sore botty but the wife. Our good lady folk do not think of cars as assets (well mine doesn't). She won't see the arguement that you shouldn't keep paying out on something that's depreciating when the alternative is to come rolling up in a 33 year old beauty. Just wait until I get the next service bill from my lovely friendly, honest, charming, and oh so incredibly cheap Alfa dealer. Come what may as its now out of warranty its down to the independent specialist for me form now on!

Good to hear from you Rick. I hope Mrs Salfas and all the little Salfas are just tickety boo!
 

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;) :D .

g
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Oh g, the master of all car logic, I bow down before your infinite wisdom. How about forgetting the 105 and going for the Maserati Quattroporte I've seen recently. Its a few more quid but its got four doors and as its got a big, big engine it must be a bargain qv the Fiat Dino, Lancia Thema 8.32 etc etc!
Shall we get together and buy matching GTVs? In our dreams...........
mmm Merc 450 SEL?.......that air suspension never goes wrong does it? ;) ;)
 

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Nervous,lets just hope Mrs N doesn`t share your nervous disposition......... :D Welcome back BTW.
I reckon you should trade the 147 in for a phase 2 GTV V6.Buy it cheap before it commands a classic car price.............. ;)
 

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nervous said:
Not so sure about the colour though
Oi. Watch it. That's a groovy colour.
:tut: :p

She won't see the arguement
Can you woo her with tales of trips down to Goodwood with a picnic in the boot and some croony tunes on the 8-track?
;)

Good to hear from you Rick. I hope Mrs Salfas and all the little Salfas are just tickety boo!
Good to hear from you too nervous. The Mrs is fine and unless she's not telling me something, the one and only Tom is keeping well too!
:D

PS Nem has moved house, had a baby and got a Honda Accord Estate, pretty much all at the same time.
:rolleyes:
 

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Nervous , if you really desire something "old" why not go the whole hog and drive it all year round? The money you save in not buying the cheap runabout could be put towards lashings of Rustproofing trips to find obscure nik naks etc etc . I know I've been there! One thing is for sure you just might miss your 147. It's the "old " feel good factor v "new" feel good factor ;)
 

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do it!! do it!! do it!! do it!! do it!! :D

You know it makes sense!


Seriously, you can build a campaign plan, to bring the wife around to the idea, on two fronts. Firstly, you need to win the business case, and then you will need to woo her on the romantism of the idea.

Work out the depreciation, insurance, maintenance, petrol and running costs of the 147. Then work out the equivalent costs for the Bertie (factoring in a much lower depreciation and insurance costs). Calculate the mileage required on the commuter run and calculate the overall costs for your commuter car (factoring in 3rd party insurance and scarp value) over a three year period. (Obviously make sure that the first is significantly higher than the other two put together ;) )

Then dazzle her with promises of romantic weekends away in cozy hotels, picnics by the sea, drives in the country. Hark back to a bygone age of motoring, when things were simpler, drivers were courteous, and roads were clear. Tell her that the car has a name (how could she resist a car called "Bertie"?).

She will be so caught up in the romantic fantasy that she will be almost begging you to buy the classic.
 

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Nervous,

For starters, don't take Rick's advice about women. :rolleyes: Somehow I doubt promises of picnics at Goodwood, where all there is to do is to watch old cars go round and round a track won't do anything to entice a woman who doesn't happen to share your motoring passions. Now picnics at Bulgari and Chanel on the other hand, might have more appeal. ;)

You've had lots of good advice here, so just let me just give you a couple more points to ponder.

1) Comfort.
I'm not sure what you do for a living, but if you are required to drive out to meetings (or into the office) in full suited business dress, you're going to want air conditioning. It's no fun to be stuck in traffic in the baking sun, panting through open windows and sweating through your blue pinstripe. I don't know if the car you're looking for comes with air conditioning (or even had it on the option list) but if I was going to buy a classic that was going to transport me to and from work on a regular basis, it would have air.

2) Wear and tear on your wife's car
If your car is going to be your car and is only going to be used for going to and from work and for fun on the weekends, your wife's car is going to start piling up a lot more miles. It will be doing the shopping runs, it will be used for visiting the relatives, etc. You need to decide if the other car can take the extra work and for how long.

3) Heartbreak factor
The more you use a car, the better the odds of having it damaged in an accident. Now it's one thing to have your everyday driver abused and battered by some other inconsiderate driver, it's a different story to have it happen to your classic -- or at least I assume it would be. While having my various Chevys hit really angered me, I'm very paranoid about having the Alfa caught in a traffic accident. I know parts are available for the Chevy. I know most body shops can repair the car. I don't know that about the Alfa. Scratch that. I know that's not the case with the Alfa. I know I can't find a bumper come h-e-double-hockeysticks or highwater. I tried to find one when I was originally thinking of buying the car, and I tried again once the restoration process was started. I also don't really trust any bodyshop to do any more than maybe paint the car.

Now personally I would never have a toy unless I had another reliable car in the garage, but I'm also single. Maybe you can get away with using your classic and relying on your wife's car for when things go wrong. That's something you're going to have to decide.

I also wouldn't run my classic in the winter (I don't even like letting it go out in the rain ;) ) but again, that could be because mine was bought as a basket case, non-running, former project car, and it putting it back together involved more time and effort than it did money (although it soaked up that too). I know at this point I can't duplicate that effort because circumstances have changed and access to tools and garage space is no longer available, so I don't want to have to deal with fixing rust holes, and other winter damage.

Speaking of winter, make sure the car is going to handle the way you want it to bad weather. Jumping into an old RWD without ABS and stability control and whatever modern assists you're used to is a bit of a change. Just make sure that you really understand what you'd be getting yourself into. If I were you, I'd talk to Mitch. I think he was the one who just posted about how wonderful his job is because he got to drive his classic all around the countryside for business. It sounds like he's using his in a similar manner as you're considering using your future purchase.

Good luck with your decision. :)
--Toronto
 

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1750 GTV, 2000 GTV, Stelvio Milano 280
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Hi Nervous, welcome back. :p
I am pondering how to reply and am expecting a visitor, so this a brief one.
My Classic isn't my only Car, we are lucky enough to have 2 moderns as well, I did take it on a 160 Mile Businees trip in marginal weather yesterday, and boy did I know about it afterwards :eek: . But it was fun..... :D

Cars have made giant strides in the past 30 years most of it in refinement.
If you do lot's of business miles, be very carefull what you buy, if you are only going a short distance to work and back and wouldn't miss such luxuries as demisting and intermitant wipers you should be OK.

Back soon when I have time...
 

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nervous said:
I hope Mrs Salfas and all the little Salfas are just tickety boo!
ROTFLMAO

Anyway, welcome back and into the best lounge as well :D

I purchased myself a '68 Giulia for Alfa meets and daily commuting and I have had my share of problems with my car. Not to scare you, or anything. It is just that I am trying to get everything in a good condition before I started my adventure. I have had 8 problems with my classic Alfa and they were there from day 1 since I bought here, I am 'fighting' with the specialist who sold me the car to get it fixed on his expense.

Back on topic again: like I said I use my Giulia for daily commuting and that means I drive her 200+ kms per day. All of them are 100% fun, but you need a mind switch to do something like that. Compared to modern standards brakes are crap (they are good consider the era the car was built in) so you have to keep more distance to one in front of you. The whipers are rubbish as well and so is the heater. There is no airbags, no vdc, no abc, no power windows, no power steering and I could go on for a while. The problem is you think you have a smile on your face with a 147, wait until you get into a real classic Alfa: the smile will stay on your face for ever and goes from ear to ear. This is what driving is all about!

In other words: go for it

@ g: go get a decent gtv6, you won't regret it.
 

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OK More thoughts then.....
Finances...These Balloon payments are supposed to be designed to leave you some equity, so they ought to be less than the Value of the car, but as you are probably painfully aware, Alfa's depreciate too quickly and you might not have any equity at all, or it even may be negative. :(
You haven't given any indication of how much the Bertie is, reason I ask is, they are around from Pocket Money...say £1000.00, to ludicrous...say £15000.00. Now the from my limited experience in this field it seems that the more you pay, the better the Car will be and hence the less you will need to spend on it to keep up to it. I have seen someone quoting £2000.00 a year average running costs on Berties, this is probably realistic if you can't do some of the essentials yourself, but if your car doesn't need Bodywork jobs and you are doing your own mechanicals it should be a lot less.
Mine was a fairly cheap Car to buy, (£3200.00), but I spent about £1000.00 on Body resto work on her this winter, and would probably need to spend about the same again next winter, perhaps more. But mechanically I have hardly spent anything apart from a normal service, Oil, Plugs, Filters etc.

Apart from rambling, what I am trying to say is if you want to keep the total running costs down you probably need to spend upwards of £6000.00, but even then you will have no guarantee's, Warrantys are a dream not a reality on Classics, you might find you need to spend lots of Brass on Brakes, Clutches, Gearboxes, engines....anything, but the again you might be lucky, it's very unpredictable.
Depreciation though isn't a factor so long as you keep up to the Body and the Oily bits, in fact they will gradually rise in value (Hopefully!!).

The 147 will depreciate and you need to think that in 2 Years Time it will be 5 Years old and you will still be paying the same amount a month :eek: . You will also STILL have the maintenance and realistically most of it will be specialist stuff...Cambelt??, Variators, ECU's etc all this could cost as much as the Classic.

I think you must have another 'Modern' car from a note you made in the first post, so if this is the case it does make sense. I would not be quite as enthusiastic if you didn't have a modern car to fall back on. Do you do much Business Mileage?, Toronto is right, to be fair I would not consider using mine for the sort of Journeys I have to do on Business on a regular basis, ie 250 Miles to a meeting 250 miles back again, you need the creature comforts for that. If you are just pootling to work and back and are happy to do it in the spare 'banger' then I would say go for it, if it doesn't work out and you have bought wisely you should be able to sell it again for about the same as you bought it and be no worse off.

Try to get as much advise before you buy perhaps taking an 'expert' with you or taking lot's of pictures of the hidden bits underneath to send too someone for their opinion. It can be nerve racking I can assure you....if you weren't 'Nervous' before, you will be afterwards ;)
Good luck and keep us all posted. :)
 
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