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The 4C won't generate serious profit but it could generate serious brand awareness and help sell MiTos and Giuliettas. It's already got tremendous positive press coverage and it's just the thing to create a splash in the US. Afetr all, it is what Alfas are all about - light and sporty. The 4C has already been a great marketing tool, producing it will do Alfa nothing but good. But they still need those volume models to back it up......

Cheers,

Nigel
 

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Therefore it seems quite strange to me that they seem so committed to turning the 4C concept into a production car; A high-cost, low volume niche product unlikely to generate any serious profit.
Build by Dallara on a modified KTM X-Bow chassis - suggests that development costs have been very low.
 

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Reading between the lines of that revised schedule, and various other recent reports and articles relating to Fiat, I would say that the reason for the delays is quite simple: Fiat just do not have the money for the development of new Alfa models at the moment.
I would not think so... if you look at all Fiat PPs you will see they are pretty much delaying everything that is not a ready-to-go-rebadge like with Chrisler-Lancia.
Official explaination is they forecast a very bad 2012 for sales, and do not want to send out new models in a market that won't accept them... which can be true, but doesn't seems to worry other manufacturers, really...
A more realistic option is that indeed you do need time to develop a new model, and not much was done in the last years about it.
Resources are limited, and Marchionne wants to maximize their use and profit (possibly the only thing you cannot blame him for :D )... even if the 4C was mentioned to be the first next new model, italian dealers received news (before the new PP) that the first new model to come out would have been the SUV (which from an economical point of view makes very sense based on the stunning success of the Freemont, at least here in Italy).
Given that, i cannot even accept the idea of an Alfa or Maserati SUV...

Therefore it seems quite strange to me that they seem so committed to turning the 4C concept into a production car; A high-cost, low volume niche product unlikely to generate any serious profit. But I have seen something similar before: anybody remember th MG XPower SV?
As Nigel said the 4C is all about having a car with enough charisma to bring the people to dealers... it won't probably make any serious profit - but cannot loose money - but it will attract people, and you will most probably sell it to someone who will need another car for daily use (you don't really expect to use a 4C for your daily duties, don't you :D )
 
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Both those links are from March Dave, and have since been completely denied by Alfa and Dallara. It's a new chassis altogether
 

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As Nigel said the 4C is all about having a car with enough charisma to bring the people to dealers... it won't probably make any serious profit - but cannot loose money - but it will attract people, and you will most probably sell it to someone who will need another car for daily use (you don't really expect to use a 4C for your daily duties, don't you :D )
Have to agree, the 8C was used to similar motive. In Australia the Brera was similar, those who would walk through the dealership doors wanting to purchase a Brera would walk out in either a GT (a faster, more practical coupe) or a 159 (similar looks with 4-door practicality) A salesman told me that the sales of GT's also dramatically increased.

Salute, Giordano.
 

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Official explaination is they forecast a very bad 2012 for sales, and do not want to send out new models in a market that won't accept them... which can be true, but doesn't seems to worry other manufacturers, really...
Pretty much agree, just hope they don't leave it too long. With the 166 they moved it back to make way for more urgent models and when it was finally released it seemed to be seen as already dated.

All the best

Keith
 

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Pretty much agree, just hope they don't leave it too long. With the 166 they moved it back to make way for more urgent models and when it was finally released it seemed to be seen as already dated.
Seems we have quite a tradition on that if you look at the past :tut:
I guess we are quite late already, anyway :rolleyes:
 

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I'm quite aware that the 4C is intended as a Halo car. But a halo for what, exactly? It's going to get people in the showroom for sure, but what are they going to come out with? A 5-door Mito? Please...

The 4C is not in anywhere near the same league as the 8C; it's a sports car, not a supercar, so must be useable every day. No reason why it shouldn't be, as it uses a standard production engine and gearbox. Whether people will want to use it every day is another matter. The idea that it should be a rich enthusiasts' track-day toy just won't fly; it has to compete with cars like the Porsche Cayman.

As for the KTM connection, I doubt the production 4C will use the X-bow chassis, as judging by the cost of a X-bow, it would be too expensive. However, no smoke without fire as they say and I would think it's not entirely improbable that a "modified" KTM chassis was used to build the concept show car, to save time and cost.
 

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As for Fiats' predicament, my personal take on the situation is this:

Fixing Chrysler has been, and will continue to be, a huge drain on resources, both financial and in terms of personnel. For Fiat to survive long-term, the Chysler deal must be successful, and is far more important to Fiat than fixing Alfa; they simply cannot afford the wheels to come off now. However, while Fiats' attention has be focussed stateside, things in Euope have not been going too well.

The current situation for Fiat in Europe does not look especially healthy; their market share continues to shrink, and there is much talk of "weathering the storm" and "stemming losses". Marchionne has admitted that he doesn't expect to so much as break even in Europe until at least 2014, but is keen to reassure investors that they "have the liquidity to survive".

An ageing and incomplete model line-up in a saturated and extremely competitive European market has seen a significant erosion of Fiats' market share. While most other volume manufacturers are talking about increasing their share (even though they all admit the market is likely to be stagnant at best for the next couple of years), Fiat talk about "survival". If the market is expected to remain flat, then any increase in sales obviously has to come at other manufacturers' expense. Fiat are vulnerable: they know it, and so do their competitors.

It's not just VW (in their much publicised drive to become world number 1) who are looking to win conquest sales from Fiat. For example, observe the twin-pronged Korean assault on Europe; both Hyundai and Kia have set themselves ambitious sales targets. If these two relatively new manufacturers get their product right (and recent evidence gives no reason to doubt that they will) they may well get close to those targets, and Fiat won't be the only one to suffer. In direct contrast to Fiat, Hyundai appear to have no intentions to delay new models: they have more than a dozen completely new or refreshed model launches planned for the next 18-24 months. Kia have just launched two new models, with more on the way, and seem to have found some much-needed style by giving ex-Audi man Peter Schreyer a job.

To compound Mr Marchionnes' misery, Fiats' share values have taken a tumble, and their credit rating has recently been down-graded. I think that he was, like a lot of others, probably expecting the economic situation to recovering by now. Instead, the markets remain volatile and the Eurozone crisis shows no sign of abating. This makes it difficult to raise additional cash for investment, as such a situation prevents him from attempting an IPO for Chrysler or a possible flotation of Ferrari.

Of course, it's not all doom and gloom; the new Panda has just been launched, and should build on the current cars' success. The Punto has received a (much-needed) facelift, the Freemont (a re-badged Dodge Journey) has been a surprise success and the 500 continues to be popular.

Fiat will undoubtedly survive the tough times ahead, but in what state remains to be seen. As for Alfa; well , they've been in some sticky situations before, but things have rarely looked as bleak as they do now.
 
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Good analysis - in many ways that's why Alfa needs the 4C. It's a bit of a smoke screen while the production of new volume models like the Giulia gets pushed back due to bigger issues with Fiat and the economy. The 4C will keep the world's attention focused on a "real" Alfa while actually very little is happening with the model range.

Cheers,

Nigel
 

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I'm quite aware that the 4C is intended as a Halo car. But a halo for what, exactly? It's going to get people in the showroom for sure, but what are they going to come out with? A 5-door Mito? Please...
Indeed... as far as i know the SUV was planned to be out some six months before the 4C... if this is correct we would have a Mito, a 5-door Mito, the Giulietta, the SUV, and within six months/a year the Giulia. I think this is the main reason of the delay on the 4C... you cannot launch it with the rest 2 years away. it's not a nice situation we all know that.

The 4C is not in anywhere near the same league as the 8C; it's a sports car, not a supercar, so must be useable every day. No reason why it shouldn't be, as it uses a standard production engine and gearbox. Whether people will want to use it every day is another matter. The idea that it should be a rich enthusiasts' track-day toy just won't fly; it has to compete with cars like the Porsche Cayman.
I think i was not clear enough on what i meant that it's not a daily use car... you WILL be able to use the 4C every day if you whish... i do not think they will made an "extreme" car like a track-day only car, it would be crazy to even have a car that is not much more educated than an Elise... several people at Alfa pointed out that the target is to have a good looking, high performance car that would be similar to the concepts of a Lotus Europa (or a Cayman, if you want to be bold).
Still, based on my experience with the Spider, it won't be your favourite car to go shopping at the supermarket... if not for the space, at least to avoid some idiot to damage the car :D
I really doubt it would be comfortable enough for a trip longer than two hours or so, and definitely you cannot use it to bring around more than one person.
Even with the Spider, even though it's incredibly comfortable (you can easily trip 6 or 7 hours stopping just for refuel and feel completely fine) and has a huge amount of room for that kind of car (enough to fit the supermaket shop of two people for a week), i cannot really think to have it as the ONLY car....
Same would be for the 4C (even more i guess...) so it's much possible that people going for the 4C would consider also another Alfa as primary car.

As for the KTM connection, I doubt the production 4C will use the X-bow chassis, as judging by the cost of a X-bow, it would be too expensive. However, no smoke without fire as they say and I would think it's not entirely improbable that a "modified" KTM chassis was used to build the concept show car, to save time and cost.
Ramaciotti and also Dallara confirmed it a different chassis, which in common with the X-Bow only the facts of being carbon fiber and developed by Dallara.

As for Fiats' predicament, my personal take on the situation is this:
....
Lot of thing very correct and true sadly... want to just add that not developing a new model is a great way of saving money and keep liquidity. The drawback of this strategy is that you have a very high chance it will bite back later... anyway i think it's very clear that all the interest is pretty much going to Chrysler, not the european brands.
I think though that even in the US are starting to argue some parts of Marchionne's strategy, and i would be very interested to see the reactions they had about dismissing an icon like the Viper without anything to replace it in the near future (the new Viper too is being delayed).


The 4C will keep the world's attention focused on a "real" Alfa while actually very little is happening with the model range.
You have to use that interest for something... quite some people would be interested in the 4C, much fewer in buying it... and you have to give them something to buy instead, once you attracted them to the brand...
 

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Personally, I'm so cheesed off waiting for Alfa to produce another RWD saloon, that I'm considering restoring a 75.
Pick an early 12-valve 164 instead, more refined, much more reliable, no rust, better looking, and just about free to buy :) Mine's been out on loan as a courtesy car for six months with no maintenance, everything still works and it's unrestored, over 20 years old... The best car Alfa Romeo ever made? The 156/166 is definitely not as durable, will the 159 be better... and does anyone care anyway? 20-yr-old cars don't make the manufacturers money :lol:

-Alex
 

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I agree with everybody else, its time to sell alfa to vw, its dying a slow death now under fiat;

somebody needs to inject some passion back into the brand, i mean ffs, there are only 2 models available and they are both pretty underwhelming to drive and have looks based on offspring of retarded rat having sex with fiat hatchbacks
 

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I agree with everybody else, its time to sell alfa to vw, its dying a slow death now under fiat;
Maybe, but if you want to maximise the investment whilst maintaining the Italian character they would be better off under someone like Tata or Geely. Companies that appear to want to invest in their acquired brands but don't interfere too much in the design process.

somebody needs to inject some passion back into the brand, i mean ffs, there are only 2 models available and they are both pretty underwhelming to drive and have looks based on offspring of retarded rat having sex with fiat hatchbacks
Taste is subjective and if that is the way you think, fine, but in the year since I've owned my Giulietta I must have had well over a dozen strangers comment on how good the car looks. Sales would seem to indicate a lot of other people think the same.
 

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Its a "merry go round"
Most of us won't buy new, because of the depreciation and after care service.
= Sales are slow and bad press means "offers" are avaliable
This interns makes less profit = NO money for new models

We all know what is needed, not only money but GOOD aftersales and better residuals.
Don't like the thought of VW - would prefer chinese but what really matters is what will they do to Alfaromeo, there might be more models, better switches, nicer garages but if driving a Alfa is like driving a golf then surely that is worst than alfa going into a 2 car manufacturer.
MAYBE if they concentrate on 2 cars and get EVERYTHING spot on then they can build on that and then add new models.
It would seem dumb to spend millions on new models if they are not bought by the "masses"
We are to blame as we don't buy new - alfa are to blame for build quality and having a dealer network who don't know their ass from their elbow:tut:
 

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The 4C is not in anywhere near the same league as the 8C; it's a sports car, not a supercar, so must be useable every day. No reason why it shouldn't be, as it uses a standard production engine and gearbox.
Word! That's why Alfa has been the perfect marquee for me: Both GT and Brera are extremely smart looking cars, suitable for every day use. We moved to England with all our stuff and a rhodesian ridgeback in a Brera.
 

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Really need the 159 replacement out next year!! Shame about the delay :(

FPT are making great award winning engines so it is such a shame that nothing new out to compete with the 3 series/a4/c class market...

Also the gap between Alfa and Maserati is too huge atm...Anyone got any news on the Maserati Quattroporte Jnr? Not seen any photos yet..
 
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