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Discussion Starter #1
Hi folks,

The time has come for me to part ways with my 1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf. The thing is, I don't really know what it's worth? There aren't any 12V Cloverleaf cars for sale in the UK for comparison purposes, but from what I've seen a nice 24V Cloverleaf fetches around £4-6k while there's currently several Twin Spark cars for sale around the £2.5 to £3.5k mark. The last 12V Cloverleaf I saw for sale was a white car earlier this year, which had been stored (so no MOT) and needed some work to see it back on the road. This car was up for £3495 if I recall.

First things first: my car is not a concours example. On the outside it's a bit shabby - lacquer peel on several panels, various different shades of red, and so on (the usual issues with Alfa Rosso cars). It has also suffered from the usual rust in the rear arches where the back of the arch meets the rear bumper. The inside is better, though the seats do have a little bit of wear showing (could perhaps do with a re-dye). The car drives nicely, still pulls as it should, but is not perfect by any means. I'll try to list all the key information below and post some pictures too.

Key facts
>1991 Alfa 164 3.0 Cloverleaf
>New MOT to June 2017
>Owned by me since June 2012, it was parked behind a barn in a sorry state and needed significant work to return it to the road. 5 former keepers. It returned to the road in December 2013.
>171,969 miles (though the speedometer and odometer hasn't worked since I've owned it - I honestly reckon I've only covered around 700 miles in the car as it has only really been used for the occasional show or errand run, and one trip to north Wales.)
>Part service history - I've kept as many receipts and invoices as possible and all the MOTs during my ownership, but have very little from before then.
>Needs cosmetic attention - it has the typical Alfa red paint fade and lacquer peel on most panels
>Has suffered from rust in the usual areas - rear subframe (I can supply a spare), rear arches, bottom of the boot floor, a bit in the scuttle area on the N/S
>17" Selespeed wheels with good tyres
>Drives nicely all things considered - still pulls as it should, and the noise will always put a smile on your face.
>Electronic suspension adjustment doesn't work (what a surprise!)
>A couple of the gauges don't work properly. The water temp warning light is usually on while driving, despite the gauge itself showing the temp to be fine. The oil pressure gauge doesn't work, but a previous owner installed an external gauge in the cabin; pressure is around 60psi at cold idle, and 20psi at warm idle.
>Leaks oil from the front cylinder head - assumed to be the cam cover gasket.
>The car is fitted with stainless tubular manifolds - however they both require some small patches of weld on them as they leak slightly. I only discovered this once they had been fitted, but taking them off and re-welding them is a big job! For now they are patched with sealing paste but this won't last.
>Standard downpipes and centre pipe, CSC twin tip backbox. Gives a nice burble.
>Rear suspension (particularly the springs) looks rather rusty to me, though the garage has never mentioned it at MOT time and they still seem to perform OK.
>Rust along the top of the windscreen.

In the last 6 months it's had (from memory)
>New (refurbished) injectors X6 (Bosch EV6 quad-stream injectors, upgraded from the original single-stream EV1 injectors)
>New intake runner upper (rubber) and lower (gasket) seals
>New throttle position switch
>New rear brake calipers and pads, and 1x new rear brake hose (N/S) and fresh brake fluid
>New Valeo ignition coil (replaced while fault-finding - old one presumably still works)
>Various fuel hoses in the engine bay replaced with correct 7.5mm hose
>Motronic relay wiring repaired to fix shorting issue
>Complete oil change with Shell Helix 10w40
>New fuel filter with new bolts and washers
>New fuel pump supply and return pipe rubber O-rings - correct Alfa part, cost me £40 for four O-rings!

During my ownership I've also replaced (in no particular order):
>Clutch (Valeo 3 piece kit)
>Timing belt and tensioner and auxiliary belts (early 2013 if memory serves, so will be 3 years old now)
>Front shock absorbers for a pair of used electronic units with new swivel bearings and springs
>Front brake calipers and pads
>Brake discs all round (slotted and dimpled)
>Brake pipes have been replaced all round for copper pipes
>6X NGK Iridium BPR6EIX spark plugs
>Cam cover gaskets and cylinder head gaskets
>Brake compensator valve
>Clutch slave cylinder hose (and removed dampener at same time)
>Removed the engine in 2012 to find it full of age-related gunk and the water ways almost blocked - took it apart and cleaned it out, replacing various parts along the way including seals, one of the camshafts (excessive pitting on the lobes) and a cylinder liner (had a very small crack).
>Replaced worn original steering wheel with period Momo wheel and boss kit.
>Replaced all seats due to wear/rodent damage.
>Replaced dashboard central heater vent (broken adjusters on the old one)
>new Thermostat and gaskets
>new Coolant temperature sender
>new small coolant hoses between cylinder heads and the thermostat housing
>new Crank sensor
>new distributor rotor arm and housing (original unit had a crack in the casting).

So it's far from perfect, but at the end of the day it's still a very rare car that's still in one piece and runs and drives nicely, but I'm honest in describing it as 'needing work'. It's by no means a show winner, and the cosmetic issues are what let it down most in my opinion. I feel a bit ill after going through the history I've amassed for it, and seeing how much I've spent keeping this slightly tired example alive. But it's time for someone else to care for it, and I will be truly disappointed to see it go - but it has to really! The sale will fund the finishing touches for the car that will replace it; my Alfa 164 Q4.

So...back to the original question: what do you guys reckon it's worth? I'd rather not break it either so please nobody ask for parts!












 

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Well based on my recent £75 valuation from westealanycar.com I reckon a Cloverleaf would be worth well over £100!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Do you really think so? I don't want to get my hopes up - but you and I both know those valuations are from industry experts so we best listen!
 

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Hi,

Modern Classics magazine did a comparison test including a 164 12v in the Feb/March edition. The values they quoted were:

Concours = £7500

Good = £4000

Usable = £2000

Project = £1200

Hope that helps.

Alan
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes that's very helpful, thanks! I dare say it's about what I was expecting - I would be happy with £2k to £2250 or something similar. Any more than that I feel would be unrealistic.
 

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Oooo! That's cheered me up!

Yes, (despite the somewhat unenlightened offers from some more "mainstream" car buying websites), I do think 164 prices have turned the corner now. I could well believe those magazine prices.
 

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Hi Haydn ,
your car is increasing in value..even as I type its increasing in value (admittedly only by pennies and I type very slowly )
but £2k ? if broken now the parts are probably worth much more , cant you lay her up for a while and rustle up a bit of cash elsewhere ?
please bare in mind I have a 164 qv and may need various bits and bobs in the future !!! if I had space I would grab your 164 now and put it away till I needed to canabilise it or hopefully get it flying , I got an idea ........ lets buy shares in your 164, with the intention of keeping it on the road ,I am happy to buy a stake in your car , 40 shares issued at £100 each keeps you going for a while and who knows when I meet need a clutch slave cylinder thingy ?
apologies for trying to set up some sort of communist type of collective whatsname where people actually come together for the common good ,but for chrissake its a blood red ish 164
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hey Joe, long time no speak. How's things?
I appreciate where you're coming from and the car probably is (slowly) increasing in value. But the facts are these:
1) I don't have the space for it
2) I need to free up the cash from it
3) The car's replacement (164 Q4) is getting close to being ready for the road, so I need to make room for it!

I will of course be sad to see it go, but needs must. As for value, I'm trying to be as open and honest as possible and I think that, say, £3k or more suggests the car is better than it is. Perhaps I'm overly harsh? But to make it nice it'll need a full respray and some mechanical work, which combined will probably cost over £2k, thus I think £2k - £2.5k is reasonable.

If anyone on here wants it feel free to send me a message. Otherwise, within the next week or so I'll be looking to list the car for sale somewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I also feel I should re-iterate that the car isn't a non-runner; it has a full year's MOT with only a couple of advisories, has tax and insurance and is ready to go. She starts and drives ok at the moment after I solved a recent relay issue. She just needs significant 'tidying up' whereas I need to spend my time and money on other cars. I'll still be a 164 owner too :)
 

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I also feel I should re-iterate that the car isn't a non-runner; it has a full year's MOT with only a couple of advisories, has tax and insurance and is ready to go. She starts and drives ok at the moment after I solved a recent relay issue. She just needs significant 'tidying up' whereas I need to spend my time and money on other cars. I'll still be a 164 owner too :)
The 12v has a particular place in my heart (h465jla) much crisper throttle response and superbly chuck able cars for there size. If I had the space and didn't have a spider v6 project I'd bite your hand off at £2000.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
They sound great too, I've had many trips in a modified 24V Cloverleaf with full stainless exhaust and whatnot...the 12V sound is still my favourite of the two. That's probably what I'll miss the most. I think I prefer the styling of the earlier cars (larger headlights and such) though must admit later cars had a more solid feel to the interiors.

I appreciate your interest anyway, I'd be happy knowing the car was going to an enthusiast. I'll probably list it for £2.5k and see what happens.
 

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They sound great too, I've had many trips in a modified 24V Cloverleaf with full stainless exhaust and whatnot...the 12V sound is still my favourite of the two. That's probably what I'll miss the most. I think I prefer the styling of the earlier cars (larger headlights and such) though must admit later cars had a more solid feel to the interiors.

I appreciate your interest anyway, I'd be happy knowing the car was going to an enthusiast. I'll probably list it for £2.5k and see what happens.
Have you sold it yet?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Nope not yet, I've not listed it anywhere yet. I was going to wait for a few more responses to the original post but it's pretty quiet in here. I need to take it out next week for petrol and to give it a bit of a run, and if it's running fine I'll stick an ad up, the link to which I will place here.
 

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Nope not yet, I've not listed it anywhere yet. I was going to wait for a few more responses to the original post but it's pretty quiet in here. I need to take it out next week for petrol and to give it a bit of a run, and if it's running fine I'll stick an ad up, the link to which I will place here.
I keep getting told that alfa v6 engined cars are on the up (busso engine) but there seems to be many gtv v6s coming up cheapish and even spider v6s (one on ebay now with less than 60000 on the clock). The gtas prices seem robust though it isn't possible to tell what really sells for what.
However your 164 is rare now and I very rarely see them come up for sale. It is very much a car of the period and as it's peers, fast fords etc , have rocketed up. I think you should sell it easily and as I said before if I could I would. £2_2.5k doesn't get you far in the modern classic market and certainly nothing with near the charisma and performance not to mention practicality of a 164 cloverleaf.
Best of luck
Tim
 

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Discussion Starter #15
It does seem that anything with an Alfa V6 is increasing in value, be it 75s, Alfetta GTVs or 916 GTVs/Spiders. If I could hold on to the 164 Cloverleaf I would, as I've spent a lot of time an effort to keep it going, especially given that state it was in when I bought it - it was languishing behind a barn, in fact it had begun to sink into the ground as it had been there that long. The fact is however that I don't have space for it, or enough free time to keep working on it as well as the other cars in my small collection. The main reason for sale is to free up some funds to help finish off my 164 Q4 project. I guess the Q4 is itself another reason why I'm selling the Cloverleaf; I have another 164 to replace it!

Thanks anyway, hopefully it will sell without too much hassle. Ideally it'll go to an enthusiast who will give it the love it deserves.
 

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Asking price lowered to £2400 or near offer. The car will be at NAD tomorrow being outshone by all the polished and pristine 164s ;)
 

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Yeah this one is on my shortlist. Finally I n the situation I can sell my cars.Unfortunately only have a grand at the moment. Out of curiosity though have you typed the vin number and log book number with DVLA? It'll give you documented history of mot.
 

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I have indeed, it's printed off somewhere so I think I have the MOT history going back to 2004. It's a handy service they've provided, i did it for my Q4 too. If you find yourself in a position whereby you can make an offer on the 164, I'm all ears! Just getting some use out of it at the moment.
 
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