[giblets46]

As I've said many times before, the EGR works well early on, but after a few thousand miles it really negatively affects car performance


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[pembers]

As I've said many times before, the EGR works well early on, but after a few thousand miles it really negatively affects car performance


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I had this cough on my 159 1.9 diesel. I cleaned the EGR valve and it made no difference. Since the EGR also incorporates an electrical solenoid I suspected this had failed. I bought a new EGR from Ebay at a very reasonable price and it cured the stutter immediately. Done 3000 miles on the new EGR and there have been no issues whatsoever.:thumbup:

 

[Gbymb]

Hey Brenton68,
I'm looking at attacking the Turbo.
As far as I can tell I have to remove the exhaust manifold to remove turbo, I'm keen to clean that side, after watching that youtube VGT clip from the above posts.

Do any of the knowledgeable guru's reading this have any advice for me before I start??
thanks in advance :-0

 

[Brenton68]

Hi Gbymb

Can't help you on R&R of the turbo, haven't been down that path as yet.

Good news is that after fitting the EGR simulator, the car is still purring nicely.

 

[Gbymb]

Well , decided not to attack the turbo, but pulled the egr again and made the valves seal perfectly. By literally blowing from the exhaust side. Then pulling on the actuator and turning the arm about 20 degrees to seat the valves closer until it seals. With the solenoid off. Then lightly oiled the solenoid and valve arm. The first drive was bueatiful, but it's back to about 50% of what it used to be , an improvement I guess. Then the retaining clip on the connector broke. It's now cable tied up tight.

 

[Britswiss]

Morning all

So Brenton, following your success I ordered a gadget off EBay and having waited a few extra days while Sydney tried to diffuse it and then realised it wasn't, in fact, anything harmful I received it this morning. Long weekend coming up and although I've got a fair bit on, I'm planning to save a few hours on Saturday/Sunday to get this thing onboard.

Fingers crossed!
Cheers

 

[Brenton68]

Morning all

So Brenton, following your success I ordered a gadget off EBay and having waited a few extra days while Sydney tried to diffuse it and then realised it wasn't, in fact, anything harmful I received it this morning. Long weekend coming up and although I've got a fair bit on, I'm planning to save a few hours on Saturday/Sunday to get this thing onboard.

Fingers crossed!
Cheers

Yes, mine was stuck in Melbourne for nearly two weeks. Frustrating when something travels half way around the world in 2 days but then sits and waits in the destination country until someone has time to look at it.

Hopefully it all works well for you. I take it that you have the EGR blanking plate as well.

My car has been going so well since fitting the EGR simulator. The kms between DPF regens has also increased by 50-75% also, so maybe the EGR/stuttering etc was adding to the soot loads.

Do you have a licensed version of MultiECUScan? During the install, the instructions say to unplug the EGR and then test the pin voltage in the harness connector with the ignition on to be sure that the pins are the right way around. On mine, they were exactly as per the instructions, but having the ignition on with the EGR disconnected did throw a check engine light which I simply cleared with MultiECUScan.

After inserting the Simulator connecting pins into the EGR harness connector, I taped it all up with leccy tape just to keep any moisture out.

The whole job will only take about 10 minutes.

Good luck with it all and I hope that it fixes your issues.

 

[Britswiss]

Hi Brenton

Just finished the installation. Yep, the hard part was fitting the 2 gaskets and the blanking plate on the underside of the EGR housing. I moved the expansion tank a little which gave enough room to get at all the stuff that had to be removed to get at the bolt heads for the EGR pipe. Before that though, I installed the gizmo and checked the voltage. As you found, the 10v was on the lower left and 3v on the lower right. I connected it and started the engine with no resulting warnings. I have a registered version of multiecu scan as part of the long story of trying to fix this issue but so far, I haven't needed to clear anything which was a bonus. I took it for a 20 minute ride and not only did it start and idle like a dream, it ran without fault. It's a different car altogether, it's quieter, smoother and drives so well. I also taped up the exposed socket and 2 wires with electrical tape and bound the plug to the nearest loom to support it and not let the pins support the socket. They looked like they may pull out over time so was extra cautious. I will find some heat shrink and tidy that end up when I get a chance.

Thank you Brenton for being the test pilot and taking the time to leave your feedback. Time will tell if it's a permanent cure and on it's next oil change/intermediate non essential service, I'll get an emissions test done by a local understanding mechanic (who is very interested in the solution). However, feedback from the UK is that the emissions with and without the EGR active both resulted in passes for an MoT yearly inspection.

I do believe this is the solution and if anyone is experiencing these symptoms, I wholeheartedly support trying this out. I will report back the emissions results for a little closure.

Thanks again, I owe you a beer or two if you're ever in Brisbane.

Cheers
Britswiss

 

[Brenton68]

Hi Britswiss

Really glad to hear that it has been a success for you. I've probably done a couple thousand kms now since fitting the EGR simulator and hasn't missed a beat. Be interested if your mechanic picks up anything different in the emissions. Unless he can test for NOX I suspect that he won't notice anything different. It's also comforting to know that there is no longer soot recycling around the Turbo and Inlet manifold. I'm not sure why, but the kms between DPF regions on my vehicle has also extended. Maybe the stutters and driving it on the edge of stuttering (I'm sure you know what I mean) creates more soot, therefore clogs the DPF earlier.

Anyway, enjoy your "New" vehicle.

 

[Gbymb]

Guys, when you say it's a new car, do you find its got a more constant acceleration curve? Or is it power? Or is it something else....I'm wondering if an 'egr delete' gives the same results. Or is it the ease of fixing and cost of doing it which sold you both.. or....thanks for humouring me....

 

[Chipmik]

Guys, when you say it's a new car, do you find its got a more constant acceleration curve? Or is it power? Or is it something else....I'm wondering if an 'egr delete' gives the same results. Or is it the ease of fixing and cost of doing it which sold you both.. or....thanks for humouring me....

I find it hard to read if you had EGR blanked before the "simultator" was mounted when talking about changed car, or was the simulator installed at same point as blankingplate & then you experience a "new car"?

 

[Brenton68]

Guys, when you say it's a new car, do you find its got a more constant acceleration curve? Or is it power? Or is it something else....I'm wondering if an 'egr delete' gives the same results. Or is it the ease of fixing and cost of doing it which sold you both.. or....thanks for humouring me....

Fitting the EGR simulator is just like having a software delete, but so much cheaper, plus it only takes 10 minutes to fit. The full EGR blanking plate is fitted at the same time.
For myself, the drivability of the car has greatly improved. Without the stutter I you can really make use of all the low down torque and I find that I'm shifting into high gear much earlier.
The car is just so much smoother to drive, and no tip toeing around the stutter that I used to have. The end to recycled soot is an added bonus.
You only need to fit the EGR simulator if you want a full EGR delete or have a stutter that you can't fix, or both

 

[Chipmik]

Fitting the EGR simulator is just like having a software delete, but so much cheaper, plus it only takes 10 minutes to fit. The full EGR blanking plate is fitted at the same time.
For myself, the drivability of the car has greatly improved. Without the stutter I you can really make use of all the low down torque and I find that I'm shifting into high gear much earlier.
The car is just so much smoother to drive, and no tip toeing around the stutter that I used to have. The end to recycled soot is an added bonus.
You only need to fit the EGR simulator if you want a full EGR delete or have a stutter that you can't fix, or both

On an unmodified car with working EGR, the EGR is closed when you "make use of all the low down torque"...So i really dont understand how that should make a difference? Same goes for shifting into high much earlier, as EGR only opens on light/partial loads?

Totally agree about the health-state of engine when blanked, but is there any change of way engine runs, (Simulator must alter the signal for amount of air going to the ECU ), comparing to this simulator mounted & just blankingplate(s)....I know EML-light will come on, but car will still run with full power.

 

[Brenton68]

On an unmodified car with working EGR, the EGR is closed when you "make use of all the low down torque"...So i really dont understand how that should make a difference? Same goes for shifting into high much earlier, as EGR only opens on light/partial loads?

Totally agree about the health-state of engine when blanked, but is there any change of way engine runs, (Simulator must alter the signal for amount of air going to the ECU ), comparing to this simulator mounted & just blankingplate(s)....I know EML-light will come on, but car will still run with full power.

Yes, if the EGR system is all working correctly and the fuel mapping is balanced and within spec, then fitting an EGR blanking plate should not make any difference. However this is an economical solution that may fix many diesel cars that have a stutter. My car had a new EGR fitted and within 5,000km, the stutter was back. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get rid of it. Personally, I think that the parameters to inputs in the fuel map are set to tight and that the car cannot "learn" or correct itself to avoid the stutter. I admit that I don't fully understand how the inputs to the ECU all work and are balanced etc, but what I do know is that the EGR simulator and full blanking plate has cured the stutter in my car 100%.

Previously the stutter would appear between light and moderate throttle. So previously if you drove very lightly, no stutter. If you pushed the car hard, no stutter. But that light to moderate throttle position that is used so often would cause lot's of stuttering. EG. Accelerating away from round about, moderate throttle while accelerating in traffic, and cruising in 6th gear at lower revs. So I think the stutter is when the EGR is at partial open. Not fully closed or fully open. Unfortunately, I think that the EGR partial opening scenario happens quite often. So fixing this issue makes the car so much more pleasant to drive. If you are after a horsepower or torque increase, then I would expect the EGR simulator would make very little or no difference. But what it does do is allow you to use what is already there in a progressive way.

I do not know, but this is how I suspect that the EGR simulator works. The ECU is expecting a pre-dertimined additional volume of air based on the % EGR opening. The MAF sensor measures the volume of air coming from the air box and the MAP sensors measure manifold pressure after the EGR addition. If the ECU gets and imbalance between what it is expecting as a MAP reading based on various inputs and the theoretical volume of air from the EGR, I think this is what causes the stutter. So I suspect that what the EGR simulator does is adjust the volume of air signal from the MAF sensor by what it would normally expect from the EGR input, thereby eliminating the imbalance. I may have the logic totally wrong, however I suspect that I'm not far away. Maybe there is someone else on the forum who does actually know how the sensors and EGR system all links together, but what I do know that it has fixed the stutter in my car.

It may not fix everyones stutter issues as there maybe other forces at play, but all I can offer is that it worked for me.

 

[Chipmik]

Yes, if the EGR system is all working correctly and the fuel mapping is balanced and within spec, then fitting an EGR blanking plate should not make any difference. However this is an economical solution that may fix many diesel cars that have a stutter. My car had a new EGR fitted and within 5,000km, the stutter was back. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get rid of it. Personally, I think that the parameters to inputs in the fuel map are set to tight and that the car cannot "learn" or correct itself to avoid the stutter. I admit that I don't fully understand how the inputs to the ECU all work and are balanced etc, but what I do know is that the EGR simulator and full blanking plate has cured the stutter in my car 100%.

Previously the stutter would appear between light and moderate throttle. So previously if you drove very lightly, no stutter. If you pushed the car hard, no stutter. But that light to moderate throttle position that is used so often would cause lot's of stuttering. EG. Accelerating away from round about, moderate throttle while accelerating in traffic, and cruising in 6th gear at lower revs. So I think the stutter is when the EGR is at partial open. Not fully closed or fully open. Unfortunately, I think that the EGR partial opening scenario happens quite often. So fixing this issue makes the car so much more pleasant to drive. If you are after a horsepower or torque increase, then I would expect the EGR simulator would make very little or no difference. But what it does do is allow you to use what is already there in a progressive way.

I do not know, but this is how I suspect that the EGR simulator works. The ECU is expecting a pre-dertimined additional volume of air based on the % EGR opening. The MAF sensor measures the volume of air coming from the air box and the MAP sensors measure manifold pressure after the EGR addition. If the ECU gets and imbalance between what it is expecting as a MAP reading based on various inputs and the theoretical volume of air from the EGR, I think this is what causes the stutter. So I suspect that what the EGR simulator does is adjust the volume of air signal from the MAF sensor by what it would normally expect from the EGR input, thereby eliminating the imbalance. I may have the logic totally wrong, however I suspect that I'm not far away. Maybe there is someone else on the forum who does actually know how the sensors and EGR system all links together, but what I do know that it has fixed the stutter in my car.

It may not fix everyones stutter issues as there maybe other forces at play, but all I can offer is that it worked for me.

We totally agree on above.... I have a blanking-plate on mine & live with the EML-light in dash..Which shouldnt affect driveability...BUT there might be an issue with the surplus of air going through the MAF compared to what TMAP measures, which screws up the where on map ECU think it should be...

It COULD be that when all well with EGR, the ECU "trusts" TMAP more & give a more correct map than if EGR has been deemed faulty.

Thanks for your reply

 

[Britswiss]

Hi Chip

I see Brenton has responded to your queries and I agree with what he's said so nothing much to add. So, I'll just clarify the state of my 159 JTD before fitting the gadget and what work I did when fitting:

Before:

No modifications to the car at all that are relevant to this modification. The car stuttered around 1500-2000 RPM when applying light throttle. Typical scenario would be cruising along in a 60kmh zone and it jack-rabbiting down the road, even on cruise control.

Modification:

Pre-fitted the electronic simulator and checked pin voltage as per instructions. Everything checked out so I proceeded with the mechanical items. I fitted the 2 gaskets and metal blanking plate to the underside of the EGR housing. These were part of the simulator kit. I then fitted the electronic simulator as per the instructions and tested again, all clear.

I took it for a quick drive immediately and a longer drive the following morning. I have since been out again and on all 3 occasions the car runs as if it were new. To me, after driving it with this cough, driving it like it was new is a HUGE improvement. This is what I mean by it feeling like a new car. Everything is more smooth, the gear changes are smoother, the engine is slightly quieter, cold starts are much improved and cold idling is constant and smooth with no misfires or coughs. I used to get blue smoke on start up and now there is none. The heavy smell of unburnt diesel is also now gone.

I can't explain all of the changes Chip. I can only describe the improvements. However, with 100% certainty, this has fixed the problem.

I hope this helps clarify what I did to cure this particular problem

Cheers

 

[Gbymb]

Thanks for your thoughts guys, this definitely is a simpler fix than any software changes etc.. I'm still exploring taking my ecu with me to the UK and let Ned at autolusso have a go at it. I think the next step is the dpf removal. It's just just such an expensive proposition here in Aus. Just to connect a pc is going to cost $1200. Then do the delete. But in the UK it seems like it'll cost only a couple of hundred. When I've got some prices I'll post it. But I've gotta get info on the ecu software version....when my odb interfaces arrive and it all talks to MES...
Well thats the current plan anyway...

Thanks again guys.

 

[Chipmik]

Hi Chip

I see Brenton has responded to your queries and I agree with what he's said so nothing much to add. So, I'll just clarify the state of my 159 JTD before fitting the gadget and what work I did when fitting:

Before:

No modifications to the car at all that are relevant to this modification. The car stuttered around 1500-2000 RPM when applying light throttle. Typical scenario would be cruising along in a 60kmh zone and it jack-rabbiting down the road, even on cruise control.

Modification:

Pre-fitted the electronic simulator and checked pin voltage as per instructions. Everything checked out so I proceeded with the mechanical items. I fitted the 2 gaskets and metal blanking plate to the underside of the EGR housing. These were part of the simulator kit. I then fitted the electronic simulator as per the instructions and tested again, all clear.

I took it for a quick drive immediately and a longer drive the following morning. I have since been out again and on all 3 occasions the car runs as if it were new. To me, after driving it with this cough, driving it like it was new is a HUGE improvement. This is what I mean by it feeling like a new car. Everything is more smooth, the gear changes are smoother, the engine is slightly quieter, cold starts are much improved and cold idling is constant and smooth with no misfires or coughs. I used to get blue smoke on start up and now there is none. The heavy smell of unburnt diesel is also now gone.

I can't explain all of the changes Chip. I can only describe the improvements. However, with 100% certainty, this has fixed the problem.

I hope this helps clarify what I did to cure this particular problem

Cheers

Thanks a lot Unfortunately none of you has tried if the blankingplates alone cures your stutter & the simulator only plays a factor in keeping the EML-light away..I already has a dongle to that, just works another way & only works 99% of the time...

 

[Britswiss]

Thanks a lot Unfortunately none of you has tried if the blankingplates alone cures your stutter & the simulator only plays a factor in keeping the EML-light away..I already has a dongle to that, just works another way & only works 99% of the time...

Hi Chip

It didn't occur to me to try the blanking plate without the simulator. I would assume that the ECU will cry foul and turn my dashboard into a Christmas tree. Also, given that the kit cost around $110 and was purchased from Poland, the gasket is worth about $0.50 and I can pick one up from Supercheap Auto so it just didn't make sense for me to not fit the expensive bit.

I suppose you could try it out if you take the existing one out and make a template of the outside profile and the fixing holes (minus the big hole in the middle of course) but I'm fairly certain it will trip some errors. It's a cheap exercise though and shouldn't take more than an hour to fit, try and remove if it doesn't work.

Another faultless drive to work today. I'm going to reset the trip meter and see if the economy has improved. I run around 9.5 l/100km average on a trip of over 1000km but it feels that motorway cruising is more efficient. I can't back that up with anything factual so I'll see what the trip says after another 3-500km.

Happy days!

 

[halftone]

I ran my 147 with the EGR fully blanked for a few weeks. The car ran well but of course the MCSF light was on. Then I went and had it mapped out by Autolusso - a bit expensive for just turning a light off. Except it doesn't just do that, it changes the fuelling to use the unexpectedly unadulterated air. The difference was obvious the moment I pulled away. Smooth, progressive and more power right from tickover up to the point where the turbo begins to boost. I had deleted my swirls too. Egr deliberately reduces efficiency at low revs, this map puts it back. It's possible the cheater does similar.