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Bit off topic but tell me about it! UK insurance has always p!ssed me off, I've given them tens of thousands over the years and received nothing except for pieces of paper as I've never claimed. Woe for anyone cancelling a policy half way through it's term as they refund you almost nothing.... Right now I insure both my 156 Busso and a Honda Civic 1.8 for £700 total, which isn't bad but I am getting on a bit!
Thats a bit more in line with us then. We are in our 40s and have been good motoring citizens :) Our younger lot sure get penalised (for good reason, I remember the shenanigans at that age :) ) , but not nearly as much as you!!
 

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EVs however produce bugger all from brakes.
They use exactly the same friction materials as any other car, so they produce the same particulates; the quantity may be less as regenerative braking can reduce the need to use the conventional brakes.
 

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Spare a thought for the kids today, some girl at work is 18 and she has a black box on her car. The instant she goes over the speed limit, even by a fraction she gets an email from the insurer. Do it 3 times and her policy gets cancelled apparently
Insanity - so she can do 60 down a country lane in snow and ice, 30 past a school at 3pm but not 33 in a rural 30 limit. Is it any wonder so many youngsters are tempted not to bother with insurance?
 

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They use exactly the same friction materials as any other car, so they produce the same particulates; the quantity may be less as regenerative braking can reduce the need to use the conventional brakes.
Actually they generally produce more particulate matter from the tyres and the brakes due to there being more weight to stop. Im trying to find it by there was a chart in a car trade mag that showed EVs as producing about the same amount of particulates as a Euro 6 derv car!!
 

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Oh yeah!!!....LOL!! That's the one!!
 

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That’s interesting. Although worth noting that they note there are differences between exhaust and non exhaust particulates chemically with different toxicity.

Luckily there are a range of other benefits of EVs and a small improvement in PM emissions is not the driving factor for their uptake.
 

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Has there ever been a study which shows that the lifetime environmental impact of:
(a) Electric vehicles or
(b) Hybrids
is greater than that of internal combustion petrol or diesel vehicles? I haven't found one.

Is there an expectation that:
(a) the costs and
(b) the environmental impact
of the young electric vehicle industry will fail to improve with development, in the way it has in the 130 year-old motor industry?

Where now are the people who used to tell us that wind and solar energy would be:
(a) more expensive than other sources and
(b) only ever make a small contribution to meeting demand
We don't seem to hear from them.
 

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The mining of the raw materials must produce a fairly large environmental impact, and as a lot of it comes from poorer countries you can bet that there's a fair bit of exploitation involved as well.
 

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For the first 40/50 years of the motor industry the car was considered to be a luxury that only the relatively rich could afford despite Henry Ford's production line techniques. Even as late as the 1950s the traffic exiting factory gates at closing time was predominately bicycles. I hope that the same will not be true of the young electric vehicle industry but unless the price drops significantly they will remain something for only the relatively well off who can afford to indulge in eco politics. Most people will look at the bottom line cost and continue to buy what is the most economic solution for them.
 

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Most people will look at the bottom line cost and continue to buy what is the most economic solution for them.
And some people (like me) will choose the lighter option 😁.

Quick math: To convert the entire UK road fleet into electric, you need to increase energy production by 50%. Good luck with that lol.
 

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Has there ever been a study which shows that the lifetime environmental impact of:
(a) Electric vehicles or
(b) Hybrids
is greater than that of internal combustion petrol or diesel vehicles? I haven't found one.

Is there an expectation that:
(a) the costs and
(b) the environmental impact
of the young electric vehicle industry will fail to improve with development, in the way it has in the 130 year-old motor industry?

Where now are the people who used to tell us that wind and solar energy would be:
(a) more expensive than other sources and
(b) only ever make a small contribution to meeting demand
We don't seem to hear from them.
First question.....On Evs No....none that ive seen.....but their whole life emissions (production, use, disposal) are not the night and day improvement over ICEs that lots expect and many believe! Hydrids...several I believe ....I will try to hunt one down when I finish this.

EDIT....two minute google found this....amongst many others.

Second question....No!...of course they will get better in all those respects….especially when Tesla stop making cars to concentrate on battery production and the big boys like VW, Merc and BMW get properly into EVs and produce cars that are superior to the Tesla offerings in every way ( to be honest Dacia use better quality materials for the interior....horrible!!...so it wont be difficult!)

Third Question....they were largely wrong. Although there is already a question over the lifespan of wind turbines not being anything like what was expected.....and like to increase expected generation cost as they need to be replaced with superior ones....especially the off shore ones!! Surely that should not of come as a surprise to many!! LOL. I would not be surprised to see the next generation of nuclear power stations killing the renewable sector stone dead though....the next gen technology is a massive step forward in safety, efficiency and waste production over the old ones we had.. Much more power all from a just a few places to (rather than the blots all over the landscape that are wind turbines and solar farms.)
 

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Saw this in today's paper suggesting hybrids are not as good as people think.
Apparently owners don't bother recharging them via the plug-in but rely on the inbuilt engine kicking in automatically.
I wonder how much of the choosing of a hybrid is drivers virtue signalling to their bosses/neighbours
 

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Saw this in today's paper suggesting hybrids are not as good as people think.
Apparently owners don't bother recharging them via the plug-in but rely on the inbuilt engine kicking in automatically.
I wonder how much of the choosing of a hybrid is drivers virtue signalling to their bosses/neighbours
My former employer had a small fleet of Hybrids and I was the one of the only ones who understood to plug them in when not in use. Everyone else just screamed around on full petrol....

I'm fairly sure production causes the most pollution for any given car but we live in a consumer society so they can't tout keeping ancient cars going despite that possibly being the real solution.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I'm fairly sure production causes the most pollution for any given car but we live in a consumer society so they can't tout keeping ancient cars going despite that possibly being the real solution.
And that is driven by the car manufactures, see the new BMW style? How could one poooooosibly be seen driving around in last years model.
 
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Saw this in today's paper suggesting hybrids are not as good as people think.
Apparently owners don't bother recharging them via the plug-in but rely on the inbuilt engine kicking in automatically.
I wonder how much of the choosing of a hybrid is drivers virtue signalling to their bosses/neighbours
They're just a car with really cheap benefit-in-kind tax. No-one's interested in plugging them in, as most of them have a really small range anyway.
 

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They're just a car with really cheap benefit-in-kind tax. No-one's interested in plugging them in, as most of them have a really small range anyway.
They've got to be constantly plugged in for any sort of benefit, if you drive all day then they are no good, the battery pretty much needs to be 100% every time you drive it. Likewise if your journey is more than about 15 miles or so then they are also sub optimal, they also stop using electric after about 75mph.

The hybrids were next to pointless in my job as they were in constant use and we had no introduction on how to use them. Plus there were fewer charging ports than cars! Unless you were an enthusiast (me pretty much as no one else cared) then you wouldn't go to the lengths of researching what they are and how to exploit their "green" benefits.

I did enjoy the Mini Cooper S PHEVs however, on Sport gearbox setting and with some charge they were rapid at lower speed. Probably the fastest thing 0-30 mph I've ever driven but they diminished quickly thereafter. Busso would leave it for dead on an open road :p:p

However check this out Mini Countryman 1.5 Cooper S E ALL4 PHEV 5dr Auto [Chili/Nav+ Pk] their kerb weight is almost 1700kg!!
 

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Has there ever been a study which shows that the lifetime environmental impact of:
(a) Electric vehicles or
(b) Hybrids
is greater than that of internal combustion petrol or diesel vehicles? I haven't found one.

Yes, quite a few. None of them credible and they are easily debunked. Look for the Hummer vs Prius argument from a few years back. Like all good models though, you need to make some assumptions and one answer will never fit all scenarios - but on average across the fleet for most users in most cases and in total, EVs are a lot better especially in the long term.

Is there an expectation that:
(a) the costs and
(b) the environmental impact
of the young electric vehicle industry will fail to improve with development, in the way it has in the 130 year-old motor industry?

No. The rate of technological advancement is massive and is far outstripping the pace ICE development has ever enjoyed.

Where now are the people who used to tell us that wind and solar energy would be:
(a) more expensive than other sources and
(b) only ever make a small contribution to meeting demand
We don't seem to hear from them.

Still saying the same things, although not many people listen anymore thankfully.

Although in Australia, theyre removing subsidies from renewables because they're "mature tech and dont need help" and giving subsidies to more gas development.
 
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