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Cant remember why a V6 couldnt use the Q4 gearbox, guess I ll have to read the thread again. :)
The transfer box fouls on the back of the engine block and/or rear bank exhaust manifold, from what I can recall.

This is all highly theoretical as I don't think anyone's ever attempted it. I genuinely think it would be easier to spin the engine around and make it RWD than making diesel Q4 bits fit the Busso.
 

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The 164 Q4 has the mid diff integrated with the rear set up. This is what makes the whole rear suspension set up so beefy.

So the 159 has the diff built in the gearbox too? I heard it's pretty much the same system as the 156.
Are right, didnt realise the 164 had the centre one with the rear, guerss that could prove difficult on a rear subframe designed for a single diff.

AFAIK the 159 uses the 156 system modified to fit, so I think so.

The transfer box fouls on the back of the engine block and/or rear bank exhaust manifold, from what I can recall.

This is all highly theoretical as I don't think anyone's ever attempted it. I genuinely think it would be easier to spin the engine around and make it RWD than making diesel Q4 bits fit the Busso.
Hmm, I wonder if things could be modded a little so it would work ? - Re-routed manifold . . . or remove a cylinder and make it a Busso V5 !

Anyone got a spare Busso and Crosswagon Q4 or Sportwagon Q4 to try it ?
 

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If you had a Busso V6 out of the car, a Busso bell-housing and then a JTD Q4 gearbox/transfer box, you could try and fit them together and see what happens. The Busso bell housing should be a straight fit onto the JTD gearbox casing / diff housing / transferbox as they're all in the same C630 gearbox family.
 

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The transfer box fouls on the back of the engine block and/or rear bank exhaust manifold, from what I can recall.

This is all highly theoretical as I don't think anyone's ever attempted it. I genuinely think it would be easier to spin the engine around and make it RWD than making diesel Q4 bits fit the Busso.
I'm not sure about that. Rotating the engine would take heavy re-engineering and in the part which affects safety the most. The chassis. You would have to complete wreck the chassis to built a tunel wide enough for the transmission.
 

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The Busso bell housing should be a straight fit onto the JTD gearbox casing / diff housing / transferbox as they're all in the same C630 gearbox family.
Exactly, thats why I was wondering why they wouldnt fit, I guess the problem is that built in centre diff.

I'm not sure about that. Rotating the engine would take heavy re-engineering and in the part which affects safety the most. The chassis. You would have to complete wreck the chassis to built a tunel wide enough for the transmission.
That centre tunnel is pretty wide already, wide enough for a prop for four wheel drive, so wide enough for RWD also.
 

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You'd have to cut the bulkhead to make room for the gearbox, yes. But this is all fairly basic welding/fabricating work. You could easily make it stronger than it was to begin with.
 

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Are right, didnt realise the 164 had the centre one with the rear, guerss that could prove difficult on a rear subframe designed for a single diff.
Yes it does. So a 164 Q4 box with 156 Q rear won't work I guess?

If the 159 Q4 box would indeed work, that might be the easiest or even only way. Despite your personal feelings, the box in the Brera was praised in some reviews back in the day. The boxes in some Alfas I have driven are nothing to write home about either. A normal manual box. Oily rifle bolt action ala the best boxes it wasn't. If the 159 GM box is the way to a RWD or AWD Busso, I have no problem overlooking branding stereotypes. Heck, I have to overlook branding stereotypes just to love Alfa. :)
 

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How are you going to get an F40 gearbox to mate to a Busso V6 engine? No car has ever used this combo. You'd be talking about either getting a spacer/adaptor plate made but then that would push the gearbox further to the N/S. Or get a custom bell housing cast, which would cost 4 figures easily.
 

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You'd have to cut the bulkhead to make room for the gearbox, yes. But this is all fairly basic welding/fabricating work. You could easily make it stronger than it was to begin with.

But that would mandate new approval as you are messing with the chassis. Adding a couple of diffs and a different gearbox is basically leaving every thing safety related untouched.
 

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How are you going to get an F40 gearbox to mate to a Busso V6 engine? No car has ever used this combo. You'd be talking about either getting a spacer/adaptor plate made but then that would push the gearbox further to the N/S. Or get a custom bell housing cast, which would cost 4 figures easily.
I don't know. I wasn't the one who brought up the possibility. Hence why I asked if it would be possible. If indeed not possible, and if the 156 Q4 box can't be made to fit by switching the bell housing as you suggested, the only other alternative would be to make the 164 Q4 box talk to the 156 Q4 rear end. Do you see a way?

As using the 164 Q4 rear end will also call for wrecking the rear. And then might as well wreck the front, turn the Busso and have RWD.
 

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Yes it does. So a 164 Q4 box with 156 Q rear won't work I guess?
It could if you put a separate centre diff in.

If the 159 Q4 box would indeed work, that might be the easiest or even only way. Despite your personal feelings, the box in the Brera was praised in some reviews back in the day. The boxes in some Alfas I have driven are nothing to write home about either. A normal manual box. Oily rifle bolt action ala the best boxes it wasn't. If the 159 GM box is the way to a RWD or AWD Busso, I have no problem overlooking branding stereotypes. Heck, I have to overlook branding stereotypes just to love Alfa. :)
Fiat gearboxes may not be the best but theyre better than GM ones - drive a 156 with a Fiat box and then one with a GM box and see which is better. As Pud says I dont think it would be possible anyway.

Maybe you could move the Busso over a little to clear the transfer box ? Or use a different, more compact transfer box ? Fit a spacer to the transfer box to move it towards the back of the car ?
 

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A 156 Q4 rear end isn't going to bolt to a GTV anyway, the rear of the chassis on a GTV is completely different to a 156. If approvals are required then whatever you do will require approval. In the UK, we would just need to get the car MOT'd. 164 24v Q4 gearboxes are so rare, there is only one for sale at the moment and it is £2k. The internals are no longer supported, so you can't get replacement parts for them.. I'd spin the engine around, use an MX5 gearbox, MX5 diff, lengthen/shorten the prop as required, maybe see if you can modify the suspension to go in as well (probably a custom made rear subframe required), that'd be the easiest way of doing it.
 

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A 156 Q4 rear end isn't going to bolt to a GTV anyway, the rear of the chassis on a GTV is completely different to a 156. If approvals are required then whatever you do will require approval. In the UK, we would just need to get the car MOT'd. 164 24v Q4 gearboxes are so rare, there is only one for sale at the moment and it is £2k. The internals are no longer supported, so you can't get replacement parts for them.. I'd spin the engine around, use an MX5 gearbox, MX5 diff, lengthen/shorten the prop as required, maybe see if you can modify the suspension to go in as well (probably a custom made rear subframe required), that'd be the easiest way of doing it.
The rear suspension can be physically done.

The main puzzle is the power train. How to get the Busso to work in AWD or RWD from. Once that is figured the IRS can be sorted.;)

As for turning the engine around, I have taken some measurements. No way without cutting. It's not only the gearbox. The engine itself would be too long. So it would need to be pushed a bit inside the cabin. This means not only a wider tunnel but also messing with the firewall. How to push all that is in there inwards? That, plus all the re-arranging that would go with turning it around makes it the last alternative. The easiest way is the way which is the most bolt on as possible. That would be a 164 Q4 bo, which was made to work with the Busso, plus figuring a way to use the 156 Q4 rear suspension and get it to "talk" to the 164 Q4 box. The least amount of fabrication and no cutting needed.

Is the mid diff in the 159 Q4 also built in the gearbox? If it was an actual mid diff, as in the middle, neither on the box or rear diff, maybe it could be used?
 

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The rear suspension can be physically done.

The main puzzle is the power train. How to get the Busso to work in AWD or RWD from. Once that is figured the IRS can be sorted.;)

As for turning the engine around, I have taken some measurements. No way without cutting. It's not only the gearbox. The engine itself would be too long. So it would need to be pushed a bit inside the cabin. This means not only a wider tunnel but also messing with the firewall. How to push all that is in there inwards? That, plus all the re-arranging that would go with turning it around makes it the last alternative. The easiest way is the way which is the most bolt on as possible. That would be a 164 Q4 bo, which was made to work with the Busso, plus figuring a way to use the 156 Q4 rear suspension and get it to "talk" to the 164 Q4 box. The least amount of fabrication and no cutting needed.

Is the mid diff in the 159 Q4 also built in the gearbox? If it was an actual mid diff, as in the middle, neither on the box or rear diff, maybe it could be used?
Sorry this is not really the thread for your GTV project, but I've got a V6 engine on a pallet here and a 156 outside with no engine in it, I've just had a quick measure and I reckon it'd go no problem. An MX5 gearbox would get the gear stick in around the right sort of location too.

156/159 Q4s both had the "centre diff" as part of the transferbox, and the propshaft bolts on after that. I've never been under a 164 Q4 so not sure how they do it.
 

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Sorry this is not really the thread for your GTV project, but I've got a V6 engine on a pallet here and a 156 outside with no engine in it, I've just had a quick measure and I reckon it'd go no problem. An MX5 gearbox would get the gear stick in around the right sort of location too.

156/159 Q4s both had the "centre diff" as part of the transferbox, and the propshaft bolts on after that. I've never been under a 164 Q4 so not sure how they do it.
This has nothing to do with the GTV. It has to do with getting the Busso in either AWD or RWD. Doesn't matter what FWD Alfa it will be in. The difference will be the rear suspension, which is really the least of the problems. I would just as happily have a Alfa GT Busso RWD or AWD. I just want a Busso which is not FWD in a modern Alfa. ;)

As mentioned, the 164 has the mid diff with the rear diff/rear suspension.

Regardless of space, turning the engine around has to be the hardest and the most work. Because it is the furthest from stock, so it will need the most modification.

Also, after some thought, I'm kind of leaning towards AWD over RWD. Don't get me wrong. I would prefer RWD. But these are FWD cars. The engine sits stupidly in the car. Hanging in front of the front axle. Weight distribution is horrible already. And you can't make it front mid engine or even have the engine a bit behind the front axle. The bonnet is not long enough. You will end up with the engine sitting in between the passengers. Regardless of a 156, GT or GTV. They are all FWD designs.

In a RWD set up you will also have to up the power so much for it not to be a slow mess. And the Busso is not the easiest engine to tune up. Unless you like turbos. But I would like to keep it N/A. Otherwise there is no point. Might as well use a 1.75 TBi and be done. The Busso needs to be N/A.

And then, your rear would be so light, with the Busson pendulum on the nose. So it would take a lot of modification and work to shift weight to the back. It's doable. But to be honest after much thought, probably not worth it. A lot of work! Once you put it all together. All together this is the most labor intense way of going.

So for a Busso I think the best compromise is AWD. Even then I found threads saying the Busso power wouldn't be enough. For sure it would be slower than the FWD Bussos. But it would be more enjoyable at least and I think 250-260bhp could be quite adequate. With RWD you would need at least 300-330bhp to start talking.

AWD would be the easiest also, because it keeps the engine as is. The least amount of mods needed and you could probably get away on stock power or a light tune.

So the goal is to figure the power train. How to get a AWD Busso. From engine to gear box to rear diff. Then it doesn't matter which car it goes in. Before doing this I was basically set on an AWD GT using 156 Q4 parts and the TBI engine, as done here. But it would just not satisfy me. I need a Busso in my life.

A GT Busso Q4 would do very well indeed. As would a GTV Busso Q4. Both are sporty Alfas and would make me happy. I would go for the easiest. But to be honest, I think once the Busso-Q4 marriage is figured, I don't think it will matter much which car you do. It could be 156, GT, GTV, 147 or 166.

Of course, RWD would be great. But I think not realistic and practical here. Unless mounting the Busso over the back seats. But that is totally different and not what I want. For that I would just buy a 348. But this is not what I want at all. ;)

So let's figure how to get the Busso into AWD. :)
 

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Yeah, turning a FWD car to RWD will be stupidly expensive and lots of work, I d use the Q4 drivetrain which has a slight rear bias and maybe even increase the rearward bias.

I think somehow modding the transfer box to make it fit would be the easiest way.

Or maybe make a V4 Busso so it all fits, or as a I said earlier a V5 one.

Another way would be to buy a Giulia (if you could put up with the horrid styling, I couldnt) and fit a Busso in that, all youd have to do would be to make an adapter to fit the Busso to the gearbox . . . or maybe not - the 2.2 JTD is a development of the 1.9/2.0 JTD Pratola Serra engine so maybe the Busso would bolt right onto the Giulia's gearbox ?
 

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I have nothing against the Giulia styling. I find it one of the best looking saloons on sale today. The style has grown on me. :)

Putting a Busso in a Giulia would probably make it impossible to get approval. The Busso is a dirty engine by modern standards and it is generally not allowed to put engines which are older than the car.

The idea of using the Busso bell housing with the 156 Q4 internals seems to be the best idea, if it has merit. If the transfer case problem can be sorted it would make a very easy conversion to AWD. Whole 156 Q4 donors can be bought for basically peanuts.

Are both boxes, Busso and 156 Q4 easy and cheap to find used? Maybe buying both and trying the switch would be the best place to start?

Can we manage to post photos showing what exactly is the problem area and what would need done?
 

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What country are you in Germany ?

There are some other Q4 threads and I ve posted quite a few photos in them, think acab has in one too.
 

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Yes. Specific photos of what we are talking about? I have read quite a few threads on the subject here. But didn't see that.
 
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