[ericssoun]

Hello to everyone,

I've recently purchased a 159 3.2 JTS Q4 with a stretched timing chain (surprise surprise) and begun the whole process of importing a complete Cloyes timing chain set + original GM VVT's.
Gathering information on the two designers (first design 92 link roller chains or second design 114 link silent chains) applied, on one of the forums (not here) I received a suggestion to replace my old (and stretched) early design chains for a complete set of the new type silent chains along with VVT's (obviously also matching the new type of chains), as from what I learned (and that user highlighted) the second design silent chains are said to be more durable and long-lasting than the roller typ.

Having in mind that I would be replacing the complete set with sprockets, tensioners, guides as well as VVT's it seemed reasonable to me that such a swap should "work" without any problems (especially that from what I understand, apart from the chains, guides and sprockets there where no changes to the engine construction/setup/parts?) - so I went ahead and ordered the new type timing-kit.

I nearly collapsed on Friday, when my friend running the garage that's doing the replacement phoned me up to say they put the engine together and my 159 is running all wrong. At first he suggested it may be an issue with the new VVT's, as once they filled up with oil it's possible (from what he said this does occur) that they gone off the alignment marks and therefore the engine isn't running as it should.
They took it apart once more to check the marks (and the marks have in fact gone off by a few degrees), but after re-aligning the VVT marks and putting everything back together, today I received another call that it's still running like a tank and at this point he believes that swaping the first design timing kit for the second design isn't possible after all..

I'm pretty much devastated, as getting the parts organized, packed&prepared for alternative shipping and delivered to Europe plus then fitted to my car, apart from a good few bucks it also took over 8 weeks and it's possible that all this went for nothing (adding around 3 days of constant garage work around the car trying to find the problem on top of that). At this point I would like to ask has anyone ever performed such a "swap" before and is there any way to get this done correctly, or am I screwed big time?
I really hope that perhaps some sensor has changed along with introducing the second type of chains and very strongly hope it will be a matter of replacing a sensor or some other small part that may be causing a misreading of the timing chain position, not allowing the engine to run properly.

I know there's a number of highly qualified mechanics and engineers around here that have a great deal of knowledge - also on the JTS engines. I very much ask for any support possible, there might be something we didn't take into consideration or simply overlooked - but then again if it's definite that I screwed up by not verifying this idea with people more experienced and knowledgeable than me prior to ordering the parts and this swap simply can't be done, please pour a bucket of cold water on my head.
What will be left is finding a way of fixing this mess (and obviously paying the price for being an idiot that wanted something "better"). In any case, many thanks for making it through the read (as well as for any input whatsoever), I also hope this will be useful for others in for future.

My best,
e.

 

[nogrip]

Not much help but I wouldn't have changed the chain type in the first place. On my early engine the primary Morse chain had stretched and the Secondary roller chains were fine. If I were you I'd put it all back to early type and sell the later parts you've already bought.

 

[jezyk]

Have you changed the solenoids? My 2.2 JTS was running very rough until I bought and fitted new solenoids that control the VVT.

 

[ericssoun]

Not much help but I wouldn't have changed the chain type in the first place. On my early engine the primary Morse chain had stretched and the Secondary roller chains were fine. If I were you I'd put it all back to early type and sell the later parts you've already bought.

Thanks for your comments. The main problem now is that we're trying to verify (just to be 100% sure) has anything else apart from the chains, guides, tensioners, sprockets and VVT's changed along with introducing the second design timing kit. At this point my friend from the garage isn't positive if the timing kit for Cadillac / Pontiac / Saab / Suzuki 3.6L engines is exactly the same as for the 3.2 JTS.
Is someone able to confirm are these 100% the same setup?
Did the first design 3.2 JTS have the same specifics as for the 3.6L GM engines (as below):

First design timing kit: 78 link primary silent chain + 2x 92 link secondary roller chains
Second design timing kit : 96 link primary silent chain + 2x 114 link secondary silent chains

Are these two sets exactly the same for the 3.6L GM engines as for the 3.2 JTS GM engine?
After replacing the full timing kit from first design to second design on my 159, the mechanic suggested that perhaps there where some differences between the 3.6L GM and 3.2 JTS timing kits - although from my understanding these are exactly the same and users on AlfaOwner have successfully replaced their timing chain kits using the 3.6L sets imported from USA - is this correct? I purchased the recommended Cloyes kit number 9-0753S along with original GM VVT's (these couldn't be wrong, as only the newer type of VVT's can house the second design silent type chains).
The person performing the timing kit replacement claims he's having trouble to align the VVT's on mark, as after changing from first design to second design I believe it's the exhaust VVT's that have their marks up-side-down now and the engine currently won't start (it does misfire every other cycle). If the timing chain kit's on both the 3.6L GM engine and 3.2 JTS are in fact the same (I'm nearly positive they are) this may be a problem of getting the marks set / alignment done correctly on the new type of kit.

Is there anything I can do to help you help me - like photos of the current positioning, close-ups on any specific elements to verify is the marks / symbols are properly set and aligned?

Have you changed the solenoids? My 2.2 JTS was running very rough until I bought and fitted new solenoids that control the VVT.

Thanks buddy, now it's an issue with misfiring and not running at all - therefore this is definitely related to the timing kit itself and my friend is positive that the solenoids for nothing to do with this specific symptom. Cheers for sending an idea though

 

[VeloceRagno]

Thanks buddy, now it's an issue with misfiring and not running at all - therefore this is definitely related to the timing kit itself and my friend is positive that the solenoids for nothing to do with this specific symptom. Cheers for sending an idea though

Don't be so sure that a misfire cant be solenoid related. I recently replaced mine with the exact equivalent GM solenoids - within a day the car suddenly developed an undriveable misfire - we put the old ones back and the misfire vanished. I've now ordered the original Alfa solenoids.

If that gets you nowhere, I would recommend contacting the guys at Alfa Workshop UK (The Alfa Workshop, specialist Alfa Romeo garage and web site) - super helpful and they know their stuff when it comes to timing chains.

 

[nogrip]

At this point my friend from the garage isn't positive if the timing kit for Cadillac / Pontiac / Saab / Suzuki 3.6L engines is exactly the same as for the 3.2 JTS.

All the parts I used for my early setup chain swap were GM / Cadillac / Saab etc.. parts - the numbers are in this post:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/838897-chain-kit-wanted.html

 

[ericssoun]

Don't be so sure that a misfire cant be solenoid related. I recently replaced mine with the exact equivalent GM solenoids - within a day the car suddenly developed an undriveable misfire - we put the old ones back and the misfire vanished. I've now ordered the original Alfa solenoids.

If that gets you nowhere, I would recommend contacting the guys at Alfa Workshop UK (The Alfa Workshop, specialist Alfa Romeo garage and web site) - super helpful and they know their stuff when it comes to timing chains.

The thing is that before we replaced the timing kit, the car was running alright (apart from it having a stretched chain, and this error was shown by the diagnostic system), so we kind of ruled out the solenoids. Having in mind that it's not just replacing the timing kit but also swaping from 1st design to 2nd (occuring in things like up-side-down alignment marks on the VVT's) and we aren't 100% sure if in fact the 3.6L GM and the 3.2 JTS share exactly the same kits (but I believe there is such a thread here as well, saying this is a much cheaper alternative to purchasing the complete kit in Europe from Alfa / Fiat).
It also may be that we simply aren't able to work out how the second design set should be correctly positioned, therefore your suggestion to try getting in touch with The Alfa Workshop might be my best bet at this point - so thanks for the heads-up

 

[ericssoun]

All the parts I used for my early setup chain swap were GM / Cadillac / Saab etc.. parts - the numbers are in this post:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-159-brera-andamp-946-spider/838897-chain-kit-wanted.html

Cheers nogrip - so we know for sure that teh first design / early setup GM / Cadillac / Saab were the same thing, which is good. I ordered a complete kit from Cloyes (More Information for CLOYES 90753S), but assuming the first desing did match, the second design should also be compatible. Do you know when did Alfa Romeo introduce the second design timing kit to the 3.2 JTS? As mentioned earlier, I have a feeling that the issue is related to correctly aligning everything and setting on the marks (which appear to be placed differently than on the previous, early setup - at least for the VVT's). Perhaps doing some photos and trying to ask The Alfa Workshop for a helpful hand..

 

[VeloceRagno]

Bear in mind that the solenoids control the oil flow to the VVTs - it might just be that they worked fine with the old VVTs, but now that you have brand-new ones, it could be that they are not functioning as required with the new VVTs - I'm speculating of course.
This will then result in the cams not operating properly and causing your misfire. Maybe try giving the solenoids a good flush clean before spending money to replace them - they could just be dirty - the holes that they feed the oil through are almost microscopic.

That said - you could be on the right track with the alignment stuff - speak to Jamie at Alfa Workshop.

.

 

[chris_w_65]

Thanks for your comments. The main problem now is that we're trying to verify (just to be 100% sure) has anything else apart from the chains, guides, tensioners, sprockets and VVT's changed along with introducing the second design timing kit. At this point my friend from the garage isn't positive if the timing kit for Cadillac / Pontiac / Saab / Suzuki 3.6L engines is exactly the same as for the 3.2 JTS.
Is someone able to confirm are these 100% the same setup?
Did the first design 3.2 JTS have the same specifics as for the 3.6L GM engines (as below):

First design timing kit: 78 link primary silent chain + 2x 92 link secondary roller chains
Second design timing kit : 96 link primary silent chain + 2x 114 link secondary silent chains

Are these two sets exactly the same for the 3.6L GM engines as for the 3.2 JTS GM engine?
After replacing the full timing kit from first design to second design on my 159, the mechanic suggested that perhaps there where some differences between the 3.6L GM and 3.2 JTS timing kits - although from my understanding these are exactly the same and users on AlfaOwner have successfully replaced their timing chain kits using the 3.6L sets imported from USA - is this correct? I purchased the recommended Cloyes kit number 9-0753S along with original GM VVT's (these couldn't be wrong, as only the newer type of VVT's can house the second design silent type chains).
The person performing the timing kit replacement claims he's having trouble to align the VVT's on mark, as after changing from first design to second design I believe it's the exhaust VVT's that have their marks up-side-down now and the engine currently won't start (it does misfire every other cycle). If the timing chain kit's on both the 3.6L GM engine and 3.2 JTS are in fact the same (I'm nearly positive they are) this may be a problem of getting the marks set / alignment done correctly on the new type of kit.

Is there anything I can do to help you help me - like photos of the current positioning, close-ups on any specific elements to verify is the marks / symbols are properly set and aligned?



Thanks buddy, now it's an issue with misfiring and not running at all - therefore this is definitely related to the timing kit itself and my friend is positive that the solenoids for nothing to do with this specific symptom. Cheers for sending an idea though

How will I know if this kit from eBay is the correct one for my 2012 3.2JTS? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Timing-C...-939A0-3-2-V6-W-O-Gear-/173695167199#shpCntId

 

[alfaromeo939s]

Buy from mace, this will fail

 

[sizewell]

Hello to everyone,

I've recently purchased a 159 3.2 JTS Q4 with a stretched timing chain (surprise surprise) and begun the whole process of importing a complete Cloyes timing chain set + original GM VVT's.
Gathering information on the two designers (first design 92 link roller chains or second design 114 link silent chains) applied, on one of the forums (not here) I received a suggestion to replace my old (and stretched) early design chains for a complete set of the new type silent chains along with VVT's (obviously also matching the new type of chains), as from what I learned (and that user highlighted) the second design silent chains are said to be more durable and long-lasting than the roller typ.

Having in mind that I would be replacing the complete set with sprockets, tensioners, guides as well as VVT's it seemed reasonable to me that such a swap should "work" without any problems (especially that from what I understand, apart from the chains, guides and sprockets there where no changes to the engine construction/setup/parts?) - so I went ahead and ordered the new type timing-kit.

I nearly collapsed on Friday, when my friend running the garage that's doing the replacement phoned me up to say they put the engine together and my 159 is running all wrong. At first he suggested it may be an issue with the new VVT's, as once they filled up with oil it's possible (from what he said this does occur) that they gone off the alignment marks and therefore the engine isn't running as it should.
They took it apart once more to check the marks (and the marks have in fact gone off by a few degrees), but after re-aligning the VVT marks and putting everything back together, today I received another call that it's still running like a tank and at this point he believes that swaping the first design timing kit for the second design isn't possible after all..

I'm pretty much devastated, as getting the parts organized, packed&prepared for alternative shipping and delivered to Europe plus then fitted to my car, apart from a good few bucks it also took over 8 weeks and it's possible that all this went for nothing (adding around 3 days of constant garage work around the car trying to find the problem on top of that). At this point I would like to ask has anyone ever performed such a "swap" before and is there any way to get this done correctly, or am I screwed big time?
I really hope that perhaps some sensor has changed along with introducing the second type of chains and very strongly hope it will be a matter of replacing a sensor or some other small part that may be causing a misreading of the timing chain position, not allowing the engine to run properly.

I know there's a number of highly qualified mechanics and engineers around here that have a great deal of knowledge - also on the JTS engines. I very much ask for any support possible, there might be something we didn't take into consideration or simply overlooked - but then again if it's definite that I screwed up by not verifying this idea with people more experienced and knowledgeable than me prior to ordering the parts and this swap simply can't be done, please pour a bucket of cold water on my head.
What will be left is finding a way of fixing this mess (and obviously paying the price for being an idiot that wanted something "better"). In any case, many thanks for making it through the read (as well as for any input whatsoever), I also hope this will be useful for others in for future.

My best,
e.

The range of the Alfa VVT System is 50 degrees. No other variant has this as it is an Alfa/(I believe Ferrari designed) system.

Someone has stated the Camaro 3.6, which uses cloyes, top and bottom, has only a 30 degree range - but that needs confirming. Non the less, the differences will not be limited to the range. It will also be wrt the static timing.

The “Uprated Mace Kit” is 500 euros. The cloyes “silent” type are not better than the roller type, just cheaper to produce and the length of the upper chains, predisposes them to even more problems than Alfa’s.

There is a lot af bull chit talked about this engine and the chains in particular. The system may well not be the best int the world, but it is only made considerably worse due to atrocious oil flow/pressure around the engine. This also affects the vvt response time. Sort these problems and this engine will prove to be as reliable as any other.

I have fitted an updated Mace kit, as too has “roop”. check out his posts.

 

[sizewell]

The thing is that before we replaced the timing kit, the car was running alright (apart from it having a stretched chain, and this error was shown by the diagnostic system), so we kind of ruled out the solenoids. Having in mind that it's not just replacing the timing kit but also swaping from 1st design to 2nd (occuring in things like up-side-down alignment marks on the VVT's) and we aren't 100% sure if in fact the 3.6L GM and the 3.2 JTS share exactly the same kits (but I believe there is such a thread here as well, saying this is a much cheaper alternative to purchasing the complete kit in Europe from Alfa / Fiat).
It also may be that we simply aren't able to work out how the second design set should be correctly positioned, therefore your suggestion to try getting in touch with The Alfa Workshop might be my best bet at this point - so thanks for the heads-up

Stop digging a hole for yourself! The car was running. You changed parts which were not compatible - Afla’ s are unique to the engine - the heads are the only thing they did to this engine. The casting is crap, but their system is superb!

All too often on this forum, issues are introduced which haven’t the remotest connection with the original issue.

Just slow down, stand back and put your logic hat on. Do a flow chart if you must; this in itself should help you focus.

 

[chris_w_65]

Chinese chains

Buy from mace, this will fail

Has anyone here tried the Chinese chain kit?

Looks like they only do a kit for the later model kit after 2009

 

[sizewell]

Has anyone here tried the Chinese chain kit?

Looks like they only do a kit for the later model kit after 2009

Manufacture nowadays is so frequently out - sourced, it is difficult to know where anything comes from. What is important is, whoever supplies anything - do they underwrite it? If they do, this implies they have had some input into the manufacture process and perhaps do quality assurance checks as well. No matter where it has been out - sourced to.

This being the case; and I am no spokesman for Mace, they warrant their kit for two years or 100,000 klms.

 

[chris_w_65]

I see the Chinese kit is most certainly the old type chain kit as I counted the links in the picture

First design timing kit: 78 link primary silent chain + 2x 92 link secondary roller chains
Second design timing kit : 96 link primary silent chain + 2x 114 link secondary silent chains

Someone on here said I can get a good quality chain kit for $500.00 so please point me in the right direction - Thanks

 

[sizewell]

I see the Chinese kit is most certainly the old type chain kit as I counted the links in the picture

First design timing kit: 78 link primary silent chain + 2x 92 link secondary roller chains
Second design timing kit : 96 link primary silent chain + 2x 114 link secondary silent chains

Someone on here said I can get a good quality chain kit for $500.00 so please point me in the right direction - Thanks

“Mace” they are an Aus company into performance kits for Holden and others, including Alfa. Duties into UK was less than 50 quid. The 3.2 JTS heavy duty kit with all sprockets is ~ 500 A$. Might as well get the kit with crankshaft sprocket and intermediate idlers as the difference is negligible and at least everything is wear free.

“roop” has only just taken delivery of his so he can give you the latest gen. I think he has set a record for the time taken - or the lack of time - to do the job. Destroying the myth that this is a difficult and complex job.

However, just punch in “Mace” on the web and they will pop up.

 

[chris_w_65]

“Mace” they are an Aus company into performance kits for Holden and others, including Alfa. Duties into UK was less than 50 quid. The 3.2 JTS heavy duty kit with all sprockets is ~ 500 A$. Might as well get the kit with crankshaft sprocket and intermediate idlers as the difference is negligible and at least everything is wear free.

“roop” has only just taken delivery of his so he can give you the latest gen. I think he has set a record for the time taken - or the lack of time - to do the job. Destroying the myth that this is a difficult and complex job.

However, just punch in “Mace” on the web and they will pop up.

Never saw the kit with the sprockets. Please send me a link

Mace lists without sprockets for $500.00 but they list on eBay as 495 AU and 40AU shipping to get to South Africa, just waiting to hear if it is the kit for the later model 3.2JTS

If you give me link for Mace site with the sprockets and also the eBay link with the sprockets that would be great

 

[sizewell]

Never saw the kit with the sprockets. Please send me a link

Mace lists without sprockets for $500.00 but they list on eBay as 495 AU and 40AU shipping to get to South Africa, just waiting to hear if it is the kit for the later model 3.2JTS

If you give me link for Mace site with the sprockets and also the eBay link with the sprockets that would be great

https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli......1.........0i71j0i8i13i30j33i10.jJZvPxYNo-Q

 

[chris_w_65]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?cli......1.........0i71j0i8i13i30j33i10.jJZvPxYNo-Q

I found it - Not sure I need the sprockets if the chains haven't slipped, to kick out an error code they only need to be slightly worn and then it would not have pointed the sprockets from wear