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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, i am new here;
I have a 1996 alfa spider V6 3.0 12V.
i want to know if the engine 3.0 24V share the same block and other parts.
I found a 3.0 24V engine, but with hi mileage, i just want to use upper part of the engine (heads, admission, eletronics)
They will fit in the 12V block?
 

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As far as I know (but get more info before doing anything, obviously) is that the 24-valve head does fit the 12-valve block, but with some difficulty.

And if you want to run a 24-valve head, you'll probably need to transplant the whole ECU and all that goes with it too, or run some 3rd party engine management chip.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
As far as I know (but get more info before doing anything, obviously) is that the 24-valve head does fit the 12-valve block, but with some difficulty.

And if you want to run a 24-valve head, you'll probably need to transplant the whole ECU and all that goes with it too, or run some 3rd party engine management chip.
thanks
i found an 1995 164 3.0 24V in a junkyard.
its complete and good condition.
 

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thanks
i found an 1995 164 3.0 24V in a junkyard.
its complete and good condition.
Don't scrap it for parts then ;)
In all seriousness though, good 164s are hard to find. Just out of curiosity, what are you looking for with the 24V heads - is it more performance? If so, for the complexity involved, you may be better off with some fine tuning of your existing engine - cams, exhaust, engine mapping, etc. The 12V sounds better anyway, I have one in my 164 QV and it sounds fantastic. Either that, or transplant the whole 24V engine...in which case, you may as well save yourself a lot of work and look for a 24V Spider instead.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Don't scrap it for parts then ;)
In all seriousness though, good 164s are hard to find. Just out of curiosity, what are you looking for with the 24V heads - is it more performance? If so, for the complexity involved, you may be better off with some fine tuning of your existing engine - cams, exhaust, engine mapping, etc. The 12V sounds better anyway, I have one in my 164 QV and it sounds fantastic. Either that, or transplant the whole 24V engine...in which case, you may as well save yourself a lot of work and look for a 24V Spider instead.
Yes, it's for performance. I want to get 250hp and i think with 24V will more easier.
i never heard the 24V v6, really the sound of 12V is more beatifull?
how much i cant get with cams, exhaust and mapping with the 12V?
We dont have 24V spider here in Brazil. Alfa Romeos are really rare. the last models imported was 2005 147.
 

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I think you might just get 250BHP on a 12V, but it will cost a lot and everything will have to be perfect. Camshaft, induction, exhaust, fuelling and a proper set up of the ecu. Reliable 250BHP on a 12V would have to be from forced induction - supercharger.

Also, bear in mind that both engines may not be at their best (how many miles/history) and may need full refurbishment anyway.

Honestly, if you really want that performance and have it reliable, you may as well get one engine totally refurbished and fitted. The 24V will get you closer, but will need all the extra parts carried over (and again working perfectly) and again be a major challenge technically.

Sorry I sound very negative, but I just feel that there are many areas of your plan that may leave you disappointed or frustrated.
 

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Oh and I have a mildly tuned 12V Spider and it sounds awesome. The early engines are definitely the best sounding ones, although not as powerful :beer:
 

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+1 to everything markymarkspider said :)
In terms of sound, in my experience the 12 Valve V6 sounds a little 'angrier' than the 24V and also sounds a bit smoother, wheareas the 24V sounds a little bit deeper and perhaps more civilised but still sounds good. It's quite difficult to describe the difference in noise really, you'd have to hear it for yourself, or try Youtube! The two engines perform differently too - comparing a 164 12V QV to a 164 24V QV, the 12V is smoother than the 24V and has great low-down torque, but the 24V is undeniably more powerful, revs more freely and is overall a bit more of an animal. The 24V engine also responds to tuning better than the 12V, which is limited by it's cylinder heads and highly restrictive cast iron exhaust manifold (though I think your spider might have better stainless steel manifolds as standard? Possibly made by Zeuna, who made the 164 24V factory manifolds which flow very well). As you might expect, the 24V heads are a better design for getting air in and out.

Some fast road cams, a decent free-flowing exhaust and a remap might generate between 10 - 25 ish hp on an 12v V6 engine that's in good condition - this is very difficult to estimate though, there are so many contributing factors to consider. I would be surprised if the increase was more than that. As markymarkspider says, one of the best ways to achieve a reliable 250 hp is via supercharging; another way would be to overbore the engine to 3.5 litres. This is, of course, expensive! But a 3.5 12V with a modified cylinder head, decent cams and exhaust, and a remap (or standalone engine management) should provide over 250 hp without too much trouble. A 3.5 24V with the same modifications will be nearer to 300hp. My 164 Q4 (3.5 24V) supposedly produces 280 hp and 342nm of torque, and this is with standard cams, standard exhaust (including twin catalysers), standard air filter, standard intake runners, and so on.

I will end this post by pointing out that all of this is, of course, hypothetical; there's no guarantee of specific gains to be had from specific modifications. The only way to know for sure is to take the car to a rolling road/dyno to see what the current hp is before you modify it, then return to the dyno after each modification or group of modifications to see what the gains are.

I hope that helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thank you guys.
I will think again and then decide what to do.
Then i will post here

Enviado de meu D6633 usando Tapatalk
 

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Thank you guys.
I will think again and then decide what to do.
Then i will post here

Enviado de meu D6633 usando Tapatalk
Just keep something in mind we learnt the hard way. The 3.0 24v motors that's fitted in the 164 is not a straight fit. We bought a 164 to salvage the 3.0 and fit it in a 147, when we realized that the crank position sensor sits on the pulleys instead of on the flywheel like on the GTV and 156 spec V6's, this means the whole pulley assembly sits 10 mm further out than on the flywheel cps v6 causing the pulleys to touch the chassis arm and sub assembly. You can either buy the entire pulley setup with mounting brackets for the aircon,alternator and powersteering pump and take a bit off the rear head for the alternator bracket to fit properly or just buy a 3.0 that has the flywheel cps. What we did to remedy this is move the motor and box 10mm to the left, but we were able to do so because we had to make custom sideshafts anyway.
 
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