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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi,
Presently the car has a starting issue and we've decided to replace the ignition leads, cap, rotor, condenser, points and coil, (plugs already new) so at least we know that side of it is "as it should be".
It'll either cure it or at least take it out the equation.
The car doesn't get started and run very often at all.
It always a long drawn out process getting it started at the best of times, which I believe can be normal for this model.
It was firing away fine for a while there, for the "once in a blue moon" it was actually being driven.
Then, it suddenly appeared to be misfiring, like it was running on less than 4 cylinders.
This was then accompanied by the reluctance to start.
Plenty fuel, due to plugs being constantly drenched in fuel after numerous attempts.
Any way, the point of this thread is to ascertain exactly what parts go with the installed distributor.
Its a Bosch JF4, 0231129036.
At present the cap fitted is the "early" style with the semi-circular cut-out, although the body of the distributor does not have bit for this to locate, therefore is it the correct cap.
Also, the rotor appears to be the later bosch style and the points are the single piece.
In short, it appears to have an early cap coupled with a later rotor, points and condenser.
Now this may be correct - just need confirmation from someone "in the know" before i go ordering the wrong things !
Any help would be much appreciated.
Cheers.
PS: Meant to say, its a 1973 car.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
have you got spark?

possibly the "new" condensor failed (modern replacements tend to be junk these days) or the points gap has closed perhaps?

your JF4 is this euro one, as seen in the 1st photo here, correct?
https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/7255017-post3.html
Hi,
Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.
We haven't actually got round to ordering the new parts yet.
Yes, it appears our JF4 is the same as in your link - thanks.
Needed confirmation from someone that the cap I have actually goes with the distributor I have.
I'm now sure it does as it did run beforehand - Would, or could it run with the wrong cap ??
Prior to stripping all the parts out for renewal, there was a spark but not convinced it was a "strong enough" spark.
Spent yesterday checking the valve timing etc and I'm not 100% sure its as spot-on as it should be - we'll see !.
Going ahead and renewing the ignition side of things first as its fairly easy and cheap to either sort or rule out the cause of the no-start/misfire.
Will report back once this is done, with the outcome.
 

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Still thinking about your issue. But to start, you suggest there is a lot of fuel wetting the plugs? The starting process on these cars varies, I never use choke, are you using full choke and flooding the plugs? Just a thought.

I wouldnt do anything with the valve timing, once set it wont 'go out' and if it were out enough to be a problem, you may well have valves hitting pistons, so valve timing is unlikely to be the problem I would have thought.
 

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I had a similar set-up, with difficult once in a blue moon starting. The key item, or at least the last change I did was to fit a priming bulb for the carburettors. Modern fuel seems much more volatile, my carburetors dry out if the car is left for more than 24 hours, all but a small teasing amount in the accelerator pump circuit. Since the fuel evaporates, it leaves any heavy impurities such as parrafins etc behind, and these can block up the little channels in the Carburettors, first ones to get blocked are the idle bleeds, so one or two cylinders will misfire at idle. I would carefully note the setting of each idle jet, remove them one by one and blow out the aperture with carb cleaner, and reinstall.
 

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Have you changed the plugs ? Constant drenching in fuel, eventually starting and only idling, is the classic way to foul a plug.
Once fouled, they will not respond to a clean with a wire brush.
There is a way to recover them, but involves heating the threaded part of the plug until it goes a certain colour, then cleaning the electrode and surrounding area .
Once fouled, the plugs WILL NOT spark in the way they should, and certainly not enough to start the car.. This often shows itself by one plug gong down first, followd by the others.
I would also fit an electric fuel pump. The reciprocating, cylindrical type, like Facet Silver Top works well.
I have a Mitsuba pump (similar to the Facet), and a 123 distributor. My car is an instant starter.
I have worked with Webers for 40+ years and have never used the choke, no need. In Summer, 2/3 pumps on the throttle after the pump has filled the carbs.
In Winter, four pumps. The engine seemingly turns over less than one revolution and it starts. Tickle it for five seconds and it will idle no problem.
Yours should do this with a good standard distributor with a good condenser and coil.
Don't touch the cam timing. It will not be involved in your issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Still thinking about your issue. But to start, you suggest there is a lot of fuel wetting the plugs? The starting process on these cars varies, I never use choke, are you using full choke and flooding the plugs? Just a thought.

I wouldnt do anything with the valve timing, once set it wont 'go out' and if it were out enough to be a problem, you may well have valves hitting pistons, so valve timing is unlikely to be the problem I would have thought.
Hi,

I understand the starting process can vary from car to car, and will say that the choke on this car has been used when it won't start without it.
All that then appears to happen (if it doesn't start, which now and again it will) is the plugs get wet and that's that - out they come to dry off.

As you suggest I'll leave the valve timing well alone for the meantime.:thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I had a similar set-up, with difficult once in a blue moon starting. The key item, or at least the last change I did was to fit a priming bulb for the carburettors. Modern fuel seems much more volatile, my carburetors dry out if the car is left for more than 24 hours, all but a small teasing amount in the accelerator pump circuit. Since the fuel evaporates, it leaves any heavy impurities such as parrafins etc behind, and these can block up the little channels in the Carburettors, first ones to get blocked are the idle bleeds, so one or two cylinders will misfire at idle. I would carefully note the setting of each idle jet, remove them one by one and blow out the aperture with carb cleaner, and reinstall.
Hi,
Thanks for that pointer.
I'll try and have a look at that this afternoon.
Cheers.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Have you changed the plugs ? Constant drenching in fuel, eventually starting and only idling, is the classic way to foul a plug.
Once fouled, they will not respond to a clean with a wire brush.
There is a way to recover them, but involves heating the threaded part of the plug until it goes a certain colour, then cleaning the electrode and surrounding area .
Once fouled, the plugs WILL NOT spark in the way they should, and certainly not enough to start the car.. This often shows itself by one plug gong down first, followd by the others.
I would also fit an electric fuel pump. The reciprocating, cylindrical type, like Facet Silver Top works well.
I have a Mitsuba pump (similar to the Facet), and a 123 distributor. My car is an instant starter.
I have worked with Webers for 40+ years and have never used the choke, no need. In Summer, 2/3 pumps on the throttle after the pump has filled the carbs.
In Winter, four pumps. The engine seemingly turns over less than one revolution and it starts. Tickle it for five seconds and it will idle no problem.
Yours should do this with a good standard distributor with a good condenser and coil.
Don't touch the cam timing. It will not be involved in your issue.
Hi,
Yes, the plugs were changed fairly recently.
At that point the car ran better than before.
That appeared to change reasonably quickly after numerous subsequent starting attempts.
The fact that the car doesn't get started that often, coupled with the failed starting and constant removal of the plugs due to flooding, would this be enough to have fouled the new plugs up, beyond their usefulness, already.
The fuel pump and distributor seem the way to go - but that will be my dad that'll make that decision :rolleyes:
 

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Hi,
Yes, the plugs were changed fairly recently.
At that point the car ran better than before.
That appeared to change reasonably quickly after numerous subsequent starting attempts.
The fact that the car doesn't get started that often, coupled with the failed starting and constant removal of the plugs due to flooding, would this be enough to have fouled the new plugs up, beyond their usefulness, already.
The fuel pump and distributor seem the way to go - but that will be my dad that'll make that decision :rolleyes:
If you have wet plugs, I very much doubt you have a problem with not enough fuel. TBH I would follow the advice regarding plugs. I did a trip to Italy in June/July and a missing/coughing/spluttering developed which I ignored as once the engine was warm it cleared or after time in Turin traffic I could clear it with an Italian tune up, that is until one day it wouldnt clear, even swapping the rogue plug to another cylinder would not clear it. New set of plugs and boom! Firing as god intended again.

Your problem with wet cylinders/plugs is too much fuel and not not enough,
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well,
Fitted new coil, leads, condenser, points, rotor arm distributor cap and plugs.
Removed, checked & cleaned carb jets/tubes, reset idle mixture screws and confirmed valve timing all as it should be.
Set up the static ignition marks etc and....................fired on the 1st turn of the key.
Ok, didn't continue to run first go but with a little coaxing and feathering of the accelerator, off it went.
Happy days :party:
Will be heeding info from previous posts regarding the choke and the plug fouling for future starting and running.
Thanks to all,
Simon. :thumbup:
 

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I'd bet my bottom dollar it was the plugs. They foul so easily on this engine. I've had week old standard NGK's foul in the past.
After similar experiences, I now use NGK Iridium plugs, which are more expensive, but gaps can be set wider (especially if you have any sort of electronic ignition), but they're so much better & never have fouled.

Glad you have it sorted !
 
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