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Hi, there,
I am curious to see how your modified TBi accelerates from 0 to 200kph (124 miles). Here is a video for mine stock 3.2 FWD 159 SW. I had to slalom a bit, due to unforeseen obstacles joining the party and the road was slightly uphill, but I reckon thats more or less representative, although it isn't exact drag time.
P.S. Sorry for my finger:rofl:
 

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Discussion Starter #82 (Edited)
I’ve learned those stopwatch /speedo measured times are not very accurate at all.
(mostly these times are too optimistic)
You either need Dragy GPS or VBOX to get accurate times.

The heavy 3.2 seems to struggle from 160-200 km/h

Best times of my TBi:
0-100 in 6.4
100-200 in 15.9
(measured by dragy GPS performace)

This Giulia Veloce 280 does 100-200 in 16.7 sec
 

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I’ve learned those stopwatch /speedo measured times are not very accurate at all.
(mostly these times are too optimistic)
You either need Dragy GPS or VBOX to get accurate times.

The heavy 3.2 seems to struggle from 160-200 km/h

Best times of my TBi:
0-100 in 6.4
100-200 in 15.9
(measured by dragy GPS performace)

This Giulia Veloce 280 does 100-200 in 16.7 sec
Mine is perfectly stock, so I just wanted to see if the figures the manufacturer is suggesting are correct. It seems like they are. 0-200 in around 29 sec.
Are you saying 0-200 for you is around 22.3? Stock it is supposed to be 0-200 km/h (s): 37.9
That would mean that you have trimmed of some 15.5 seconds off, which would be massive improvement.
 

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Discussion Starter #84 (Edited)
Mine is perfectly stock, so I just wanted to see if the figures the manufacturer is suggesting are correct. It seems like they are. 0-200 in around 29 sec.
Are you saying 0-200 for you is around 22.3? Stock it is supposed to be 0-200 km/h (s): 37.9
That would mean that you have trimmed of some 15.5 seconds off, which would be massive improvement.
Exactly.... stock TBi is slow as f in duck. Those + 80 hp/120Nm makes things happen.

So yours are 0-200 km/h 29 sec?
That 3.2 is just too heavy and low on torque :)

You would be surprised of times if using a proper GPS meter and not just speedo.
When you hit 200 km/h you're most likely only doing 190-193 km/h.
I now all say "but my car's speedo is very accurate!"
- they never are...

Anyway - my 159 Tbi is up for sale, so testing is over..
I need something newer, lighter, faster and most important, auto...
 

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Exactly.... stock TBi is slow as f in duck. Those + 80 hp/120Nm makes things happen.

So yours are 0-200 km/h 29 sec?
That 3.2 is just too heavy and low on torque :)

You would be surprised of times if using a proper GPS meter and not just speedo.
When you hit 200 km/h you're most likely only doing 190-193 km/h.
I now all say "but my car's speedo is very accurate!"
- they never are...

Anyway - my 159 Tbi is up for sale, so testing is over..
I need something newer, lighter, faster and most important, auto...
I struggle for traction on start due to FWD and lack of diff - so wheel spin and torque-steer or slow gentle start are the options to choose from. That costs me around a second and a half.
It would benefit from a decat manifolds, new intake cam and a remap. Definitely! I am not sure if I want to get myself into that or go for a Q4 and swap engine with a 2.8turbo from Insignia OPC and tune it.
I had a GPS gear set up on my previous phone integrated in the OBD2 reader, so I did run similar tests. It was very neat for drag timing. Will install it on the new phone soon and redo the test for complete accuracy. Now I just wanted to see how the car performs after plugs and a coil were changed. I was not going for drag time accuracy, so the test served its purpose.
 

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Discussion Starter #86
Phone GPS is not accurate enough for proper testing - results will vary wildly..

That stock 3.2 in most cases never had more than 250 hp and modding with decat, intake cam and remap is pure waste on that engine. The engine already lacks power for this heavy car, and at best you'll gain 10-15 hp but at a cost of moving torque curve up in rev range. Cams are always gain some and lose some.
N/A cars are blast from the past. Turbo is now, but soon past. Electric cars are now and future.

My TBi is sold and will be picked up tomorrow....

Now the159 was never a "fun car" - it was all about looks.
Always lowed the design, but I got tired of the terrible dated interior (like15 years old design)
My next car is perhaps not as good looking as the 159 -
however it's much faster and economical and yes - it's electric.
 

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Discussion Starter #88
Always wanted a 159 TBI TI sedan for looks and engine (TI versions just don’t exist in Denmark)
So got a Distinctive and gave it a TI makeover for looks.
However, I soon found out a TBi is not a fun car to drive and not very fast at all ( in fact it’s slower than a Giulietta 170 MA TCT)
So tuned it for performance and now it got looks and power. But the more I looked at the interiour I hated that very dated design and its clumsy driving.
So sold it for something fast and modern.
My TBI was picked up today by new owner. No regrets...
 

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Phone GPS is not accurate enough for proper testing - results will vary wildly..
It is not a phone GPS. It is an app that reads via Bluetooth from the ELM327
That stock 3.2 in most cases never had more than 250 hp and modding with decat, intake cam and remap is pure waste on that engine. The engine already lacks power for this heavy car, and at best you'll gain 10-15 hp but at a cost of moving torque curve up in rev range. Cams are always gain some and lose some.
I disagree with you on that one. Autodelta claim to achieve 14bhp and 32Nm increase only by remap and torque peak is not coming later in the rev range. For power it even comes sooner. http://www.autodeltashop.com/product_info.php?cPath=123_125&products_id=525
I am confident that with the inlet cams and headers 300bhp and 400Nm or something similar are achievable.

BTW I am curious to know, roughly, how much did all the performance tuning to your TBi cost you?
 

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Discussion Starter #90 (Edited)
It is not a phone GPS. It is an app that reads via Bluetooth from the ELM327
Even worse then. Data via ELM27 will be same as you get on speedometer.
You absolutely need a proper GPS device. Nothing else will work.

I am confident that with the inlet cams and headers 300bhp and 400Nm or something similar are achievable.
That will for certain never ever happen. Like ever.
You would need a 3.8 conversion for something like that...
Or better yet, compressor.
Cams will just give more power at higher revs. Cams are give and take..
It's expensive and hard to give more power to a "modern" N/A engine (fuel injected)
And even 300 hp /400 Nm is not enough for the heavy 3.2 159 to feel "fast".

My lighter TBi with 277 hp / 440 Nm made it Golf 7 GTI Performance fast, and Giulia Veloce Q4 280 like in mid accelerations. It would eat a stock GQV easy.
Compared to Golf R, Audi S3, BMW 140i my TBI felt like driving some Skoda Octavia.
Even compared to brothers old BMW m135i
I should have gone K04 hybrid and had 310 hp/450nm no sweat - I was just too chicken.
 

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Discussion Starter #91 (Edited)
BTW I am curious to know, roughly, how much did all the performance tuning to your TBi cost you?
Guess roughly 4000 Euro including Quaife diff, K04 turbo, downpipe, custom map and workshop hours.
Quaife diff is a must with this kind of power or you just have one wheel spinning all the time, or braked by that terrible E-Q2.
Knowing what I know now, I should have taken a K04 hybrid, or maybe ditched it all, sold it and bought an ugly BMW M135i - that car is like a rocket.
Well I sold it anyway, but no more dated cars for me.
 

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Even worse then. Data via ELM27 will be same as you get on speedometer.
You absolutely need a proper GPS device. Nothing else will work.


That will for certain never ever happen. Like ever.
And even 300 hp /400 Nm is not enough for the heavy 3.2 159 to feel fast.
My lighter TBi with 277 hp / 440 Nm made it Golf 7 GTI performance fast and Giulia Veloce Q4 280 like in mid accelerations.
I felt like driving some Skoda Octavia compared to brothers old BMW m135i - now that’s fast.
I could have gone K04 hybrid and had 310 hp/450nm no sweat - I was just too chicken.
the m135i is what, a 6 inline twinscroll turbo hot hatch. It is not a fair comparison. The 159 in my case is a big ol wagon. Apples and Oranges here.. With now 2kids,wife and a Golden retriever the m135i is not an option for me.
The 159 was never designed as a sports car. It is more of a comfie cruiser. there aren't many affordable 250+HP petrol wagons out there to pick from. There is the A4 3 litre quattro, the Legacy H6 and that is pretty much about it.
BTW TBi is just 90 kg lighter than the V6.
If i have to be honest, i didn't consider it due to the price - last year they quoted me 2k Euro more than the v6 and still slower in stock condition and with the cheesy M32 box, which is a pile of sh*t TBH. And on top of that, the V6 had every single option on it, while the TBi had almost none.
I thought the TBi is a beter platform for upgrading though. Excluding the M32, of course.
4K EUR is not cheap. IMHO with that money a V6 can be transformed into a beast also. Stick up a Rotex charger in it and get 350+ bhp.But that is overkill for a FWD car.It would make sense in a Q4 though.
I am almost convinced that, in my case, there is no point in tuning the car, since it serves its purpose well enough in stock condition. The investment in tuning will be significant and will make more sense in a Q4.
The drama with the V6 JTS is the way Alfa built the heads. It is waaay more complex that what it should be and it is not working as they wanted it to. The same engine in the Vauxhall 2.8Turbo variant is renowned to be bulletproof.
As for the Giulia, it is a totally different animal to the 159. The way it goes around corners is just physics-defying! You might accelerate with it, but you are most deffo not going to turn with it.
Anyway, thanks for the info and good luck with your new car. Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter #93 (Edited)
No the M135i is a twin turbo and so?
Get the 335i...

Alfa Romeo 159 3.2 JTS 1740 kg curb weight
Alfa Romeo 159 1.7 TBi 1420 kg curb weight

To me that's more than 90 kg....

The TBi is way way lighter and very easy to make way quicker than that heavy V6
You like many others seems not to have a clue about the M32 box in the TBi, and just repeat each others
With correct oil amount it's as solid as most others.
I had no issue what so ever with 110.000 km on the clock with 277hp / 440 Nm.
Same like lots of other mapped TBi owners that know how to give the box 2.8l correct oil..

Yes sure I'll enjoy my new car even it's not a beauty like the 159
But it had to go since I got real tired of that dated interiour..
 

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No the M135i is a twin turbo and so?
Get the 335i...

Alfa Romeo 159 3.2 JTS 1740 kg curb weight
Alfa Romeo 159 1.7 TBi 1420 kg curb weight

To me that's more than 90 kg....

The TBi is way way lighter and very easy to make way quicker than that heavy V6
You like many others seems not to have a clue about the M32 box in the TBi, and just repeat each others
With correct oil amount it's as solid as most others.
I had no issue what so ever with 110.000 km on the clock with 277hp / 440 Nm.
Same like lots of other mapped TBi owners that know how to give the box 2.8l correct oil..

Yes sure I'll enjoy my new car even it's not a beauty like the 159
But it had to go since I got real tired of that dated interiour..
Yeah, it's 110 kg, not 90. But it definitely is not 320kg. So...
930030
 

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Discussion Starter #95 (Edited)
Yeah, it's 110 kg, not 90. But it definitely is not 320kg. So...
And yours is a saloon? - the SW is some 100 kg heavier.
On a scale you'd be surprised of the "real" weight. Especially the "TI" version.
And all pre 2009 versions are very heavy vs the post 2009 versions.
Alone leather interior is some 50 kg more than a "Lusso" or "Distinctive"

The dynoed 277hp /440 Nm really says nothing - real life performance does.
On dry tarmac my TBI was neck to neck with a a Golf 7 GTI Performance DSG from a standstill.
Then at some 100 km/h he was chanceless......
As previous stated it SLOWLY pulled from a Giulia Veloce Q4 280 from a 50-60 km/h rolling start.

Car was dynoed on a very hot day, but off course compensated. In cold weather IC would performe better.
Who knows, maybe it got 300 hp /450 Nm - I don't know and don't care.
I just know it really really pulled hard.
 

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Even worse then. Data via ELM27 will be same as you get on speedometer.
You absolutely need a proper GPS device. Nothing else will work.


That will for certain never ever happen. Like ever.
And even 300 hp /400 Nm is not enough for the heavy 3.2 159 to feel fast.
My lighter TBi with 277 hp / 440 Nm made it Golf 7 GTI performance fast and Giulia Veloce Q4 280 like in mid accelerations.
I felt like driving some Skoda Octavia compared to brothers old BMW m135i - now that’s fast.
I could have gone K04 hybrid and had 310 hp/450nm no sweat - I was just too chicken.
the m135i is what, a 6 inline twinscroll turbo hot hatch. It is not a fair comparison. The 159 in my case is a big ol wagon. With now 2kids,wife and a Golden retriever the m135i is not an option for me. BrwTBi is just 90 kg lighter than the V6.If i have to be honest, i didn't consider it due to the price - last year they quoted me 2k Euro more than the v6 and still slower in stock condition and with the cheesy M32 box, which is a pile of sh*t TBH. If I am to spend 4K Euro on modifying it, I can go with the V6 - stick a Rotex charger in it and get 350+ bhp.But that is overkill for a FWD car.It would make sense in a Q4 though. So I might as well keep mine stock and swap it for a Q4 if a decent one comes along. Then the headers and Rotex might be a valid option.
No the M135i is a twin turbo and so?
Get the 335i...

Alfa Romeo 159 3.2 JTS 1740 kg curb weight
Alfa Romeo 159 1.7 TBi 1420 kg curb weight

To me that's more than 90 kg....

The TBi is way way lighter and very easy to make way quicker than that heavy V6
You like many others seems not to have a clue about the M32 box in the TBi, and just repeat each others
With correct oil amount it's as solid as most others.
I had no issue what so ever with 110.000 km on the clock with 277hp / 440 Nm.
Same like lots of other mapped TBi owners that know how to give the box 2.8l correct oil..

Yes sure I'll enjoy my new car even it's not a beauty like the 159
But it had to go since I got real tired of that dated interiour..
And yours is a saloon? - the SW is some 100 kg heavier.
On a scale you'd be surprised of the "real" weight. Especially the "TI" version.
And all pre 2009 versions are very heavy vs the post 2009 versions.
Alone leather interior is some 50 kg more than a "Lusso" or "Distinctive"

The dynoed 277hp /440 Nm really says nothing - real life performance does.
On dry tarmac my TBI was neck to neck with a a Golf 7 GTI Performance DSG from a standstill.
Then at some 100 km/h he was chanceless......
As previous stated it SLOWLY pulled from a Giulia Veloce Q4 280 from a 50-60 km/h rolling start.

Car was dynoed on a very hot day, but off course compensated. In cold weather IC would performe better.
Who knows, maybe it got 300 hp /450 Nm - I don't know and don't care.
I just know it really really pulled hard.
SWs are exactly 50 kg heavier than the saloons. But we are measuring sedan vs sedan or SW vs SW. This is kurb weight - empty vehicle, 90% full tank, all fluids and no extras.
My point is that the V6 alone is not that heavier than the TBi as you suggest. The rest depends on the package. Now the Q4 adds 70 kilos in V6 and 60kg in the 2.4 JTDm. So if you compare a sedan TBi, that has no extras to a 3.2 SW Q4 Ti you might be close to 300 kgs difference. But that would not be a fair comparison.
930088


Mine is SW. I do not have the leather seats. FWD V6s are all facelift only. And the lightening starts from MY2008, not 2009. They get rid of approximately 45 kg by using some lighter materials. https://www.carscoops.com/2008/02/geneva-preview-2008-alfa-romeo-159/
Mine is a Lusso with almost full extras + 19 inch TI wheels, alu pedals and manual. If special equipment is fitted (sunroof, tow hitch etc.) the unladen weight increases, thus reducing the payload as specified inthe maximum weight allowed. In my case I have all of that - sunroof, tow hitch, etc. Leather, amplifier and Blue&Me are the only options missing from the extensive list. For some reason the previous owner didn't care for those, but I am grateful for the Sunroof. My kids and I love it! I wouldn't ditch the extras, since they make the car exactly how I want it - a comfie family saloon that is capable of standing its ground against formidable opposition. I only removed the tow hitch, since at the moment it only adds weight and I am not going to pull anything at the moment. I will not be surprised at all from the real life weight of the car since I am having it weighted every year on the MOT, so I am fully aware ;)



As for if getting to 300bhp and 400Nm is doable on this V6. It is not only achievable, but it has already been done.
Fitting the Rotrex C30-94 on a Q4 would get you to at least 350 and 430+ Nm. I know a guy who got 399HP/480Nm from his 159 saloon, replicating the Autodelta kit (charger+oil set+oil cooler), but doing the labor himself with a help from a mechanic in Greece.
For me it would be a different story, since due to FWD I will have to fit a quaife as well and this will make the thing a bit more expensive. After giving it some thought, at this point of my life I am more willing to spend my money on mortgage, raising my kids and providing them with proper education. As you are most probably aware, for me 4000EUR is double to what they are for you. If not more. The standard of living in our countries is very different, so I will accommodate with what I have at the moment.

BTW, the Giulia Veloce is easily tunable to much more of that stock 280bhp without many major modifications. And the Q4 is a bit heavier than the RWD. The petrolheads are buying the base RWD Giulia and tune it to the Veloce 280bhp effortlessly. It is only software. And it is quicker. Some even go further. The downside is when the weather is not so appropriate. Then you long for the Q4.
Anyway, thanks for the discussion. It was a pleasure! Kudos for what you have done with your TBi! Don't let the fact that I am discussing with you mislead you that I do not have respect for what you have achieved here.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
Even it’s not correct to measure from your video, it seems like your 3.2 does 50-130 km/h in some 9,2 seconds and 100-150 km/h in some 7.5 sec.
You can compare to what I’ve posted earlier:

So far my best and valid Dragy measurement.
50-130 km/h 6.66 sec.
100-150 km/h 5.99 sec

Any who, I'm quite happy comparing to these two cars (if those results are valid)
These figures seem very slow..

2017 VW Golf GTI Performance Mk VII:
50-130 km/h at 7.6 sec
100-150 km/h 7.6 sec

2019 VW Golf GTI TCR Mk VII
50-130 km/h in 6.3 sec
100-150 km/h 6.3 sec
Lot's of fast cars out there...
My brothers old 2007 BMW 135i Coupe E82 (305hp) apperently does 50-130 km/h in 5.4 sec
When I try to follow, he’s just gone - no way I can keep up with that car :(
 

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Even it’s not correct to measure from your video, it seems like your 3.2 does 50-130 km/h in some 9,2 seconds and 100-150 km/h in some 7.5 sec.
You can compare to what I’ve posted earlier:
Since you have mo' pawa an' mo torque, it wouldn't make sense for your car to be slower than a heavier N/A SW with less power. Especially torque - there is over 100Nm difference. So it seems plausible. I think I can squeeze a bit more performance wise,because I was not going completely flat out on the video, but I doubt it would make a huge difference. Some tenths of a second here and there,but that's about it. And let's not forget that we are talking about a car with 205 k kms on the clock. So it may not be at 100% anymore. And I actually paid less to buy it than you spent on modifying yours. So,all in all,not bad.
 

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Discussion Starter #99 (Edited)
+180% taxes on cars in Denmark. Meaning a 10.000 Euro car in Sweden or UK is roughly 28.000 Euro in Denmark......
Taxes did come down recently, but still - cars are expensive here...
The kicker....
Taxes does not apply to electric cars.....

Yes a 3.2 v6 could get good power, but you don't see many 159 v6 with compressor...

Based on your video and a stopwach your 150-200 km/h time is some +14 sec.
This really expose the power difference. My TBi did 150-200 km/h in less than 10 sec :)
And that is nearly Golf 7 R equivalent...nearly.
(based on accelerationtimes a Giulia Veloce Q4 280 is 11.5 sec).
AWD comes with a cost...

I'm not saying this to brag in anyway - there is way, way faster cars even out on my jobs parking lot.
I'm just pointing out - a TBi with K04 turbo, decat downpipe, proper exhaust and very important, proper map made by a tuner makes the TBi fly.
A K04 Hybrid turbo would have been even better, but then performance clutch and dmf is needed.

One of the more fun car I raced was some dude in a Golf 5 R32 which he told me my TBi was chanceless against.
He did pretty good and was half a car in front in 1 gear - and then I was pulling away....
But that R32 sounded like a racecar, compared to that boring TBi sound..
Also those youngsters in their Fiesta ST200 was up for a surprise racing this old fart in his big saloon. Even a dude in his 2016 Focus RS gave me hands up for (nearly) following him on a long freeway overtake. However he was faster than me and pulled of.

My next car will be way, way cheaper than Giulia Veloce Q4, Golf R, Focus RS and the likes and does:
0-100 in some 4 sec
50-130 in some 4 sec
150-200 in some 8 sec
100-200 in some 12 sec.
No need to map or mod and overall faster than a BMW M3 - that includes driving on track.
 

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yeah,the 1750 tbi sounds a bit like kitchen appliance, although it does go. Especially in the Guilietas lightweight body. Me? I always wanted a V6. The sound turns me on:)
Tesla?
 
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