Alfa Romeo Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Has anyone carried this out here?
I have been offered this option on my 147. ( Supposedly giving yet more power, cleaner, and supposedly improves engine reliability/life expectancy, and MPG of course or costs anyway)
Is it worth it and are the claims true. Also as they are not the biggest car on the planet, I would have to probably lose my spare wheel bay to fit a 20 or 30ltr tank, or never buy shopping again! :vs_shake:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
Eh? AFAIK there is no way to run a diesel on LPG. The 120hp jdtm is also an 8v engine, id be sceptical of anyone claiming to be able to remap one to 180bhp, given that the 16v even has trouble reaching that.

a well respected tuner (squadra) claims 155hp for the 8v jtdm, and 175 for the 16v

More is obviously possible with supporting hardware modifications, but stock i dont see an 8v jtdm doing 180hp
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
Eh? AFAIK there is no way to run a diesel on LPG. The 120hp jdtm is also an 8v engine, id be sceptical of anyone claiming to be able to remap one to 180bhp, given that the 16v even has trouble reaching that.
It's been done, LPG gets injected with the charge similar to WMI. Not sure of how the LPG system Interacts specifically with the diesel fuelling system, might be that the base diesel map is adjusted leaner since there's an expected quantity of LPG present.

When the LPG is empty and your running on diesel only you end up running leaner than normal and down on power, but given a diesel engine is normally run much leaner than stoichiometric ratio I think this would work just fine. You'd just be a bit down on power...

In terms of remaps, the stock 16V can make 195 bhp... At least that's what the off-the-shelf map I've got from Autolusso claims to reliably deliver. Although I've never been on a Dyno to confirm, I've also got no reason to doubt them - well respected outfit that have seen plenty of 16V JTDs ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
It's been done, LPG gets injected with the charge similar to WMI. Not sure of how the LPG system Interacts specifically with the diesel fuelling system, might be that the base diesel map is adjusted leaner since there's an expected quantity of LPG present.

When the LPG is empty and your running on diesel only you end up running leaner than normal and down on power, but given a diesel engine is normally run much leaner than stoichiometric ratio I think this would work just fine. You'd just be a bit down on power...

In terms of remaps, the stock 16V can make 195 bhp... At least that's what the off-the-shelf map I've got from Autolusso claims to reliably deliver. Although I've never been on a Dyno to confirm, I've also got no reason to doubt them - well respected outfit that have seen plenty of 16V JTDs ?
Thanks for the input, My version is the 8V 2003 model, (apparently ) a little stronger engine than the 16V, why don't ask me, but also supposed to be easier to remap as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
It's been done, LPG gets injected with the charge similar to WMI. Not sure of how the LPG system Interacts specifically with the diesel fuelling system, might be that the base diesel map is adjusted leaner since there's an expected quantity of LPG present.

When the LPG is empty and your running on diesel only you end up running leaner than normal and down on power, but given a diesel engine is normally run much leaner than stoichiometric ratio I think this would work just fine. You'd just be a bit down on power...

In terms of remaps, the stock 16V can make 195 bhp... At least that's what the off-the-shelf map I've got from Autolusso claims to reliably deliver. Although I've never been on a Dyno to confirm, I've also got no reason to doubt them - well respected outfit that have seen plenty of 16V JTDs ?
From what i understand, on the 16v JTDm, the turbo/clutch is the limiting factor.

As for LPG injection, i suppose the benefit of LPG over just adding more diesel is the cooling effect from the LPG?

I dont think the whole conversion would be worth the efforth though, a bigger intercooler and just upping boost/fuel injection seems like a more straightforward way of adding power on a diesel. Off course there will be a point where the added cooling effect of WMI or LPG will be needed, but AFAIK you can achieve well above 200hp from a 1.9 JTDm before needing WMI (i think JS JTD did something like 270 before needing WMI). Also, i'd imagine adding an LPG system plus injectors, control logic etc.. to a car is much more effort then going for the simple diesel-only route.

That said, i dont know much in depth about JTDm tuning, i know they remap well within their limits, and usually clutch or airflow (be it turbo-size or the various pipes) are the first limit to run into.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Eh? AFAIK there is no way to run a diesel on LPG. The 120hp jdtm is also an 8v engine, id be sceptical of anyone claiming to be able to remap one to 180bhp, given that the 16v even has trouble reaching that.

a well respected tuner (squadra) claims 155hp for the 8v jtdm, and 175 for the 16v

More is obviously possible with supporting hardware modifications, but stock i dont see an 8v jtdm doing 180hp

Ho well, that's thrown a spanner in the gearbox of claims and ideas. Personally I have NO idea, I am just doing a parrot and repeating what my Mech has said + one or two others. So maybe your correct. With no rolling road available for me to dump it on and see, I have NO verifiable way of proving one way or the other. The half baked way to at least to indicate if it's some 180 + or or 150+ BHP performer is to do a top speed or 0 to 60 time run, which only half indicates which could be right. From some of the times shown on the Youtube, if she will do sub 8 seconds 0 to 60 it should be at least 240+ BHP and if I am like 7.4 secs ) to 60 probably well over 250+ BHP; A bit half baked yep but that's all I got dudes. I am guessing thus far a reasonable estimate is going to be about 7.1 to 7.5 secs. But will try and time it. I think she will end up maybe about low 7 seconds ish, but we will see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
0-60 times are a very poor indicator. a mini cooper S will do 0-60 in 7.1 seconds if memory serves, with just 170 bhp. Obviously that isnt a diesel, but you get the point. The Giulietta 2.0 JTDM takes 8.0 to 60 with 170HP as well.

As for improving your 120hp 147, id suggest just a basic remap to ~150-ish, that kind of grunt from a diesel is plenty of power from my experience. (as in, sure, more is better off course, but having driven a mapped A3 TDI, i cant imagine really needing more)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
0-60 times are a very poor indicator. a mini cooper S will do 0-60 in 7.1 seconds if memory serves, with just 170 bhp. Obviously that isnt a diesel, but you get the point. The Giulietta 2.0 JTDM takes 8.0 to 60 with 170HP as well.

As for improving your 120hp 147, id suggest just a basic remap to ~150-ish, that kind of grunt from a diesel is plenty of power from my experience. (as in, sure, more is better off course, but having driven a mapped A3 TDI, i cant imagine really needing more)
It supposed to have already been remapped a good time ago, just the guy who had it done, has NO idea what the boost to BHP was pushed up to. I does seem very quick not that that says squat anyway LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,095 Posts
but AFAIK you can achieve well above 200hp from a 1.9 JTDm before needing WMI (i think JS JTD did something like 270 before needing WMI). Also, i'd imagine adding an LPG system plus injectors, control logic etc.. to a car is much more effort then going for the simple diesel-only route.

That said, i dont know much in depth about JTDm tuning, i know they remap well within their limits, and usually clutch or airflow (be it turbo-size or the various pipes) are the first limit to run into.
That's pretty much my understanding of it.

Joey got up to 230bhp with an upgraded turbo, stock diesel injectors and no WMI. Damien got 270+ but had the larger cloverleaf injectors, hybrid turbo, FMIC, and WMI. Pretty sure Joel in NL has had 300+, but many mods by this point.. If you want big power, you don't necessarily need LPG, but if you want cheap milage, LPG might the way to go.

As I understand it sub 200bhp is a sweet spot for the stock engine. Push much past that and you'll need to start upgrading bits left, rights and center. Plenty of people have gone that route mind, so it's not a jump into the unknown.

Stock clutch and DMF are definitely a weak point. Standing advice is that if you get a remap on a stock car, expect to need a new clutch within 15k miles. The GTA clutch and SMF is an option, as are a number of upgraded clutch parts... But again, you start down the route of upgrading little bits everywhere...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
That's pretty much my understanding of it.

Joey got up to 230bhp with an upgraded turbo, stock diesel injectors and no WMI. Damien got 270+ but had the larger cloverleaf injectors, hybrid turbo, FMIC, and WMI. Pretty sure Joel in NL has had 300+, but many mods by this point.. If you want big power, you don't necessarily need LPG, but if you want cheap milage, LPG might the way to go.

As I understand it sub 200bhp is a sweet spot for the stock engine. Push much past that and you'll need to start upgrading bits left, rights and center. Plenty of people have gone that route mind, so it's not a jump into the unknown.

Stock clutch and DMF are definitely a weak point. Standing advice is that if you get a remap on a stock car, expect to need a new clutch within 15k miles. The GTA clutch and SMF is an option, as are a number of upgraded clutch parts... But again, you start down the route of upgrading little bits everywhere...
Well, It seems soemthing is not quite adding up, I used a drag race App set on my Galaxy mobile to at least find some indication of acceleration times, not sure how much they can be trusted, but better than a wet finger sticking out the window I suppose. The sensation seems quite fast, pulls very well, I don't have the best rubber on the car for a good drag start , still running winter tyres 185/60R 15s and the best ish I could get is about 0 to 60 in the 8 second range, although the car seems to perform much better, on the mid range speeds like 40MPH to say 70 or 80MPH, takes off like a bullet, great for getting past an excited Larda or something. LOL But that maybe normal for them. So maybe the guy I got the car from is shovelling some B.S. As for sure, if someone had a friend remap my ECU for another 30 or 40 horses, I am sure I would remember such an event and not forget it. Considering he claims when asked how much it's been jumped to he says " I don't know". UMMm. :titanic: It's not that I am unhappy with it, it goes well, but I am now reevaluating my hurried assumptions on it and the bold claims of warp speed. :paranoid: So I just may get that award of DICK of the day.LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,945 Posts
I tried using apps and things to measure my JTS but found them to be inaccurate due to wildly varying times. Also, 0-60 or 0-62 seems to make quite a big difference due to the need for a gear change to reach 100kph.

I've never heard of LPG being injected into a diesel. It may be possible to use LPG for extra fuel which keeps the exhaust gas clear of smoke but I've never thought or looked at the effects LPG may have in a diesel engine with regard to detonation.

I advise caution and research thoroughly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Just ordered one of them plug in boxes for that 25 to 35 HP claimed boost, quite cheap, well if it turns up, and I can feel the difference it will demonstrate the guy who used to own the car is full of Pooop, with his magical claims that it has been remapped, prior. So it either wont start, run like bag of old nuts, or it will feel like nothing has been put on the car regards the 25 BHP chip if it has been remapped. Or if really lucky it will make it fly, somehow I doubt that thought . :judge:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
Id be cautious, those simple tuning boxes work by adjusting sensor data to make the ECU think it is running waaaaay too lean, so adding more fuel. If the ECU itself has already been mapped, fudging the sensor numbers even further might lead to unexpected results.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Id be cautious, those simple tuning boxes work by adjusting sensor data to make the ECU think it is running waaaaay too lean, so adding more fuel. If the ECU itself has already been mapped, fudging the sensor numbers even further might lead to unexpected results.
It seems all or near all chip tuning ECU or box mods, basically follow the same path by altering the fuel air mix curve from the manufacturers standard setup. having watched some Youtube runs by claimed 200 or even 275HP 1.9TJD 147s near all show excessive black smoke from the rear pipe, indicating it's either got a screwed up phased and calibrated injector pump or maybe some odd problem with injectors, although doubtful. Anway with tuned chipped (D) engines it's a classic sign it's probably been messed with. Working on that premise, my little 147 smokes like a chimney and pulls like a train, not that it tells me what the BHP is only it's probably been messed with. The guy assures me he had the car standard at 120HP, gave it someone who remaps ECU's for race cars, and when he got it back some 2.5 years ago now it was night and day different, but has no idea what the BHP was or is as it's never been on a rolling road. "Costs I expect". I have never been in an Alfa 147 of anytype prior me buying this one, so I have no experience reference point; I also feel paying out 80 or 150 pounds for someone to give a paper to say it's standard at 120 HP or 350 HP LOL. or something, is not worth the money, can't afford it anyway. So I need to find someone local with a normal 147 TJD 100 or 120Hp to personally gauge if it's mildly more powerful, mind blowing tuned, or just warmed up a little, whatever that is. The box chip will only fool the system to pump more fuel/air, as the guy said, if you plug it in and there is a power reduction it's way above 145BHP without the box MOD, if it's standard I should be pleased with power increase from 120 to 145 BHP and if say it's 140 already you will notice no difference in performance. So, in summery, the little box MOD, if nothing else, is going to tell me if I have some 175 or 190BHP type remap or a mild tune, or standard. that's the logic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,945 Posts
Have you tried using a generic EOBD diagnostic tool? The date of latest map upload is logged and can be found under ECU information. It obviously won't give information as to what the map is or why it was installed as it only logs the date.

When I looked at performance for my JTS, as said, I just couldn't get consistent likely results. What I did was to take acceleration readings to higher speeds and looked at the difference from say 100kph to a greater speed. By subtracting my spurious 0-100kph time and replacing it with a professionally obtained time, I could then see my times to let's just say speed x, were actually better than online times.

Anyway, does it matter? I don't have a Lotus Elise. It's a near 15 year old cooking sports saloon, not some hot shoe sports car. In that vein, just remember an 8v JTD is never going to be as quick as a 16v JTD. The engine simply doesn't breath so well at higher engine speeds so performance is either less or the engine must produce much more torque. Just accept it and enjoy it for what it is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
It seems all or near all chip tuning ECU or box mods, basically follow the same path by altering the fuel air mix curve from the manufacturers standard setup. having watched some Youtube runs by claimed 200 or even 275HP 1.9TJD 147s near all show excessive black smoke from the rear pipe, indicating it's either got a screwed up phased and calibrated injector pump or maybe some odd problem with injectors, although doubtful. Anway with tuned chipped (D) engines it's a classic sign it's probably been messed with. Working on that premise, my little 147 smokes like a chimney and pulls like a train, not that it tells me what the BHP is only it's probably been messed with. The guy assures me he had the car standard at 120HP, gave it someone who remaps ECU's for race cars, and when he got it back some 2.5 years ago now it was night and day different, but has no idea what the BHP was or is as it's never been on a rolling road. "Costs I expect". I have never been in an Alfa 147 of anytype prior me buying this one, so I have no experience reference point; I also feel paying out 80 or 150 pounds for someone to give a paper to say it's standard at 120 HP or 350 HP LOL. or something, is not worth the money, can't afford it anyway. So I need to find someone local with a normal 147 TJD 100 or 120Hp to personally gauge if it's mildly more powerful, mind blowing tuned, or just warmed up a little, whatever that is. The box chip will only fool the system to pump more fuel/air, as the guy said, if you plug it in and there is a power reduction it's way above 145BHP without the box MOD, if it's standard I should be pleased with power increase from 120 to 145 BHP and if say it's 140 already you will notice no difference in performance. So, in summery, the little box MOD, if nothing else, is going to tell me if I have some 175 or 190BHP type remap or a mild tune, or standard. that's the logic.
I would expect different results from putting in the box tune, those tuning boxes dont replace/reset the map in the ECU, so if the ECU is mapped to 160, plugging in the box wont take it back down to 145, it would rather try to trick the ECU, which already has an adjusted fuel curve, to push even more fuel, which might result in some extra power, but most likely just means loads of black smoke as it is overfuelling. Either way, you wont be able to tell anything in an absolute sense about your power, just how close it is to the oxygen-limit.

If you want to know anything real about it, 80 bucks for a dyno session will be much better then a JTD tuning box, especially since those things cost what, 200-300?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I would expect different results from putting in the box tune, those tuning boxes dont replace/reset the map in the ECU, so if the ECU is mapped to 160, plugging in the box wont take it back down to 145, it would rather try to trick the ECU, which already has an adjusted fuel curve, to push even more fuel, which might result in some extra power, but most likely just means loads of black smoke as it is overfuelling. Either way, you wont be able to tell anything in an absolute sense about your power, just how close it is to the oxygen-limit.

If you want to know anything real about it, 80 bucks for a dyno session will be much better then a JTD tuning box, especially since those things cost what, 200-300?
Well according to info on the NET it seems my new/old Alfa cannot be a 120HP 3door TJD Mjet, as seems according to Alfa they never made one, they made a 115HP 8V but not a 120HP version in 2003. Anyway, It must have been remapped as it performs way past Alfa's standard 115HP 8V figures of about over a little over 10 seconds 0 to 60MPH, it's definitely down into low to mid 8 second range, even possible 7.8 times. working on that premise, and we say it does cover ) to 60 in low 8 second times, it's puts in the range of the 140, 150HP, maybe 160BHP range, performing 147 Alfa's at least I can relatively reliably assume that
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I would expect different results from putting in the box tune, those tuning boxes dont replace/reset the map in the ECU, so if the ECU is mapped to 160, plugging in the box wont take it back down to 145, it would rather try to trick the ECU, which already has an adjusted fuel curve, to push even more fuel, which might result in some extra power, but most likely just means loads of black smoke as it is overfuelling. Either way, you wont be able to tell anything in an absolute sense about your power, just how close it is to the oxygen-limit.

If you want to know anything real about it, 80 bucks for a dyno session will be much better then a JTD tuning box, especially since those things cost what, 200-300?
Well the item, if it works, is on it's way, if nothing else it will be an interesting experiment to see which way it responds to the MOD box, my latest theory on remapped power via ECU as said is around the 140 to 160BHP range as is. So, It will either get zero effect except maybe and black cloud rain maker machine. It won't start, go like a rocket, run for 10 seconds and supply 20,000 nuts and bolts on the floor after going bang, or a power reduction. PLACE YOUR BETS NOW on the sweep stakes of the week. LOL. :party::party::party: I am not sure this arrangement has been done before, so it will be a first, at least we will have some future data or info to draw on should anyone else be in a similar spot in the future!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
58 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Have you tried using a generic EOBD diagnostic tool? The date of latest map upload is logged and can be found under ECU information. It obviously won't give information as to what the map is or why it was installed as it only logs the date.

When I looked at performance for my JTS, as said, I just couldn't get consistent likely results. What I did was to take acceleration readings to higher speeds and looked at the difference from say 100kph to a greater speed. By subtracting my spurious 0-100kph time and replacing it with a professionally obtained time, I could then see my times to let's just say speed x, were actually better than online times.

Anyway, does it matter? I don't have a Lotus Elise. It's a near 15 year old cooking sports saloon, not some hot shoe sports car. In that vein, just remember an 8v JTD is never going to be as quick as a 16v JTD. The engine simply doesn't breath so well at higher engine speeds so performance is either less or the engine must produce much more torque. Just accept it and enjoy it for what it is.
I have one of these OBD plug ins, and can never get the stupid thing to connect to my phone Bluetooth. Yes right, the 16V due to the 16V has to breath better as they say it's has a bigger mouth, LOL. it's all about fuel and air, and faster and more efficient it can deal with it, generally the fast you go, to a point of course. Fully aware of that one. But of course most of the time it's not quite as simple 2X the inlet and outlet value size as the 8V valves tend to be a reasonable size bigger than one of it's brother engines with the 16V head, so the valve size of an 8V is say 1.5 times the size of a single exhaust valve of the 16V version, so effect is yes overall bigger but not as much as one may think!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
289 Posts
Well according to info on the NET it seems my new/old Alfa cannot be a 120HP 3door TJD Mjet, as seems according to Alfa they never made one, they made a 115HP 8V but not a 120HP version in 2003. Anyway, It must have been remapped as it performs way past Alfa's standard 115HP 8V figures of about over a little over 10 seconds 0 to 60MPH, it's definitely down into low to mid 8 second range, even possible 7.8 times. working on that premise, and we say it does cover ) to 60 in low 8 second times, it's puts in the range of the 140, 150HP, maybe 160BHP range, performing 147 Alfa's at least I can relatively reliably assume that
Well the item, if it works, is on it's way, if nothing else it will be an interesting experiment to see which way it responds to the MOD box, my latest theory on remapped power via ECU as said is around the 140 to 160BHP range as is. So, It will either get zero effect except maybe and black cloud rain maker machine. It won't start, go like a rocket, run for 10 seconds and supply 20,000 nuts and bolts on the floor after going bang, or a power reduction. PLACE YOUR BETS NOW on the sweep stakes of the week. LOL. :party::party::party: I am not sure this arrangement has been done before, so it will be a first, at least we will have some future data or info to draw on should anyone else be in a similar spot in the future!
If it is an 8v JTDm, squadra tuning claims they can make 155hp from it, which im inclined to believe (as they are well known and respected in alfa-land), so if you car was remapped by anyone halfway competent, you are probably running around that kind of power.

Again, id take a dyno run over dicking around with expensive tuning boxes though, my money on your experiment is on it not adding any real power, just producing some black smoke. Even then though, that is the best case scenario, and wont tell you much about what you are running now. Worst case you might experience some issues with the turbo or whatever... I wouldnt risk breaking things if you arent going to learn what you want anyway.

If you want to know what power it makes, a proper dyno run is the only way to know for sure, if you want more power, taking a serious approach (which probably involves a bigger turbo, perhaps intercooler and injectors, and a remap) is the only way to go from an already remapped car.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top