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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I was speaking to a friend who is an alfa tech and who previously worked at Saab. We were discussing the my 1.9 16v JTD and how it is also used in the Saab 9-3. He also mentioned that the 9-3 has a twin turbo version of the alfa engine. The second turbo is piggybacked on the first and it all sits nicely on the manafold. Car produces 177bhp and over 300ft/lb according to wiki as standard:cool: So my question is why has no one done this? A search on the forum reveals no threads on this option and yet there are many threads regarding turbo modifications from 2.4 etc where lots of fabrication needs to be done which I know is not possible for some to achieve. According to my tech mate he said even the ECU is the same so in theory it wouldn't take much to have a twin turbo 156/147. I even have a VNT solenoid off a 9-3 currently fitted to my 156 as mine was duff and he had one kicking around in the bottom of his tool box. It's the same part :cool:
 

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It's actually a biturbo setup with a smaller turbo feeding a larger one and with a bypass valve. Strangely enough the term "twinturbo" is chosen wrong by the factory.

Fiat only used this engine in the Lancia Delta, where it produces 190 Hp and 400 Nm.
Indeed the Saab also uses it, but it's a little bit downtuned.

It might look simple to install, but it's harder than you think. Think about all the plumbing, the boost control of 2 turbo's instead of one and the space you need to pack this.

On Fred's TDI Page. TDIClub.com. VW TDI Enthusiast Community somebody is working at a similair build (compound setup) you can see how much it involves. Twice the turbo = minimal twice the costs and twice the time involved.

And why bother if you can get close to biturbo performance with a GTB2056v turbo which is far easier to adapt ?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I see what you are saying J but would it not just be a bolt on upgrade? As the parts exist for the engine. Surely this is easier than chopping and welding bits of turbo together. Not that I don't love the GTB thread and I think it's a mavelous bit of engineering skill :thumbs: but that seems far more involved than just canibalising a Saab 9-3 or indeed the Lancia no? If you were building something from scratch then yeah I agree leaving single turbo's would be much easier but as the engine actually exists in several forms. One even from the fiat stable then surely this would be a totally pheasable option.
 

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just double troubles. Doesn't worth on 1.9 JTD imho.
 

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I think the reason to bother, JS, is that 2 smaller turbos would be less laggy than 1 dirty great big turbo.

But I think engines with 2 turbos can be called "twin" or "bi" as both mean "2", there are 2 possible set ups though-parallel or sequential, think this is what you were getting at. AFAIK the JTD one is sequential.

When the twinturbo 1.9 was released, Fiat saved the 190 version for itself and limited non Fiat marques to the 180, now the 2.0 litre version is imminent, its allowed others the 190, so latest 9-3s have the option of it.

Tis very strange that Alfa never used it, though, but probably down to the fact that it would have made the 2.4 redundant as it would have been faster AND more economical than the 2.4. Now the 2.4 is dead, I m sure the 2.0 twin turbo will replace it in the Guilia and the Guilietta eventually.

The same Alfa tech bloke Joss mentioned reckons its a simple bolt on job, plus sorting the oil supply for the second turbo and hes worked on the twinturbos and single turbos a lot.

I think the reason no one has done it is the relative rarity of the twinturbo and the expense.

If you hadnt blown all that cash on a GTA, Joss, you could have spent some of it on a conversion !:)
 

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I think the reason to bother, JS, is that 2 smaller turbos would be less laggy than 1 dirty great big turbo.
Not necessarily true.
Actually the Lancia Delta TT has a small and a big turbo. A small one to make boost quickly and a big one to take over the flow in mid- and high rpm range. It is this particular setup that does give a benefit in working range.

But I think engines with 2 turbos can be called "twin" or "bi" as both mean "2", there are 2 possible set ups though-parallel or sequential, think this is what you were getting at. AFAIK the JTD one is sequential.
Twin = two similair
bi = two different

So logically I'd call a V6/V8 or whatever with two similair turbo's (one for each cylinderbank) a twin turbo, and an engine with a small turbo and a big turbo a biturbo.
Indeed the 190 hp JTD engine is a sequential setup.

When the twinturbo 1.9 was released, Fiat saved the 190 version for itself and limited non Fiat marques to the 180, now the 2.0 litre version is imminent, its allowed others the 190, so latest 9-3s have the option of it.

Tis very strange that Alfa never used it, though, but probably down to the fact that it would have made the 2.4 redundant as it would have been faster AND more economical than the 2.4. Now the 2.4 is dead, I m sure the 2.0 twin turbo will replace it in the Guilia and the Guilietta eventually.
Good point, I wonder if the sequential turbo setup really returns. The costs are high, and the evolution of the single diesel turbo is going fast. The Garrett GTB turbo does 30% more boost at 90% of backpressure compared to the GTA series.

The same Alfa tech bloke Joss mentioned reckons its a simple bolt on job, plus sorting the oil supply for the second turbo and hes worked on the twinturbos and single turbos a lot.

I think the reason no one has done it is the relative rarity of the twinturbo and the expense.

If you hadnt blown all that cash on a GTA, Joss, you could have spent some of it on a conversion !:)
I doubt if it's a simple bolt one job. Who takes the challenge?
Here's one (or should I say two?):
Turbina per LANCIA, ALFA ROMEO 1.9 JTD DA 190 CV TWIN TURBO PER DELTA,e 159 | eBay
 

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Right, so twin is 2 parallel turbos and bi 2 sequentials.

All JTD 2 turbos (in Lancias, Saabs and Cadillacs) are bi-turbos, 160, 180 and 190 (in the 9-3 you can have any of those outputs).

Earlier I said that the 2.0 was "imminent" as I couldnt think of anything that uses it, but I ve remembered that the 9-5 does, so it is in production already . . . or should that be "was" as no Saabs have been made since April ! ?

Beemer's 2.0 bi turbo makes 218 PS and 332 lb/ft, the single makes 181/280 and I ve read a lot of reports that say theres very little lag. I remember when it was launched, reading a US car mag that said it was one of the best engines ever, high praise coming from a market were very few diesels are sold.

I think 2 turbos will always be better than one, especially if one is smaller.

I ll add that item to my watch list-it can join the various 156 Q4 parts I m watching ! He says its an Alfa unit and is used in the 159, though, I m pretty certain it never was.

It is not worth it... a decent GTB turbo beats "twinturbo" any day...
Why dya say that Tribesman ?
 

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Since the 1.9JTD 16v twin turbo (or whatever you want to call it) was planned for Alfa Romeo but never happened, I would be similarly surprised if the set-up is ever applied to the 2.0 JTD.

In any case, the Fiat Group need to concentrate on applying MA to the JTDs. This would make them much more competitive at least in terms of power and CO2 outputs compared to say, BMW. At the moment, there is no comparison, the Germans hold all the trumps.
 

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IMHO biturbo setup makes sense on large displacement engines, where single big turbo spools rather slow and doesn't provide low rpms power. Latest GTB generation provides really decent power at low rpms already. Believe me ;-)

Mentioned Fiat group biturbo is BorgWarner one (R2S family probably)).


Btw it's not completely bolt on - you have to control valve (I.) splitting the exhaust gas flow somehow.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I doubt if it's a simple bolt one job. Who takes the challenge?
Here's one (or should I say two?):
Turbina per LANCIA, ALFA ROMEO 1.9 JTD DA 190 CV TWIN TURBO PER DELTA,e 159 | eBay
Does that mean cars like the nissan skyline and toyota supra are really bi turbo and not twin turbo then as both of their set ups are sequencial and I believe they are different sizes too even though the call them twin turbos:think:. In any case I'd be up for the challenge if not to just be a little different. Plus having 2 turbos on the JTD would get everyone looking at it at meets:lol: Not sure what I'd do with your down pipe mate. I'd have to sell it on :(

In any case, the Fiat Group need to concentrate on applying MA to the JTDs. This would make them much more competitive at least in terms of power and CO2 outputs compared to say, BMW. At the moment, there is no comparison, the Germans hold all the trumps.
I'm not interested in C02:p I want POWER and drivability. :cool::D

IMHO biturbo setup makes sense on large displacement engines, where single big turbo spools rather slow and doesn't provide low rpms power. Latest GTB generation provides really decent power at low rpms already. Believe me ;-)

Mentioned Fiat group biturbo is BorgWarner one (R2S family probably)).


Btw it's not completely bolt on - you have to control valve (I.) splitting the exhaust gas flow somehow.
Surely all this can be taken from the Saab/Lancia part book. The contol valve and piping I've been told are piggy backed rather than two separate systems. Apparently the larger turbo is trying to spool at the same time the small one does it just takes longer which makes sense. Down pipes could be had from the other cars or manufactured.....fancy a challenge JS? :D which leaves the induction side of things which can be manufactured from standard prts right at the turbo inlet and silicone parts to match u to the JTD airbox. Basically boys I'm scared of welding! :lol:
 

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Joss said:
Does that mean cars like the nissan skyline and toyota supra are really bi turbo and not twin turbo then as both of their set ups are sequencial and I believe they are different sizes too even though the call them twin turbos :think:
The skyline and supra are actual twin turbo's with two small turbo's feeding 3 cylinders each.
With V-style or boxer engines is easier to use twins because of the plumping.

Joss said:
Surely all this can be taken from the Saab/Lancia part book. The contol valve and piping I've been told are piggy backed rather than two separate systems. Apparently the larger turbo is trying to spool at the same time the small one does it just takes longer which makes sense. Down pipes could be had from the other cars or manufactured.....fancy a challenge JS? which leaves the induction side of things which can be manufactured from standard prts right at the turbo inlet and silicone parts to match u to the JTD airbox. Basically boys I'm scared of welding!
Now that I look closer, it seems it's not entirely sequential. The comp outlet is parallel.
The extra valve probably bypasses the small turbo at a given airflow rate.
Also the large turbo is a simple wastegated one, and it looks the small turbo is free floating.
It looks like the exhaust ports @ the cylinderhead are different too.
For the downpipe, I can build one but then I need the original piece as a template.
Intake side shouldn't be that different to solve.

typos1 said:
Beemer's 2.0 bi turbo makes 218 PS and 332 lb/ft, the single makes 181/280 and I ve read a lot of reports that say theres very little lag. I remember when it was launched, reading a US car mag that said it was one of the best engines ever, high praise coming from a market were very few diesels are sold.
With a biturbo it's possible to get a wider range than whatever single turbo, I agree.
But if I look at this Fiat unit from KKK there's no VNT involved to extend the working range.
So if you'd compare that to a single Garrett GTB unit I believe the difference is not that big.

I do believe it's useful to use a biturbo setup at whatever engine, because you can use a high pressure ratio/flow for high power combined with fast spooling.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The skyline and supra are actual twin turbo's with two small turbo's feeding 3 cylinders each.
With V-style or boxer engines is easier to use twins because of the plumping.
Both are straight 6 though not v:confused:.:lol: As for the plumbing could we not use an original lancia downpipe as a template?
 

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the tuning boxes for the Lancia Delta TT JTD offer 230bhp & 335lbs, and that's with no other mods (DPF ect), so some good potential
 

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Nope, these turbos are hardwired and ECU has no clue it's controlling two turbos. If both valves (I. and II.) are really controlled by the same pressure regulator as Joss wrote, it would make any tuning even harder.

Btw. GTB2056V is still capable of little bit more power.

Btw2. Turbo is one of the most strained component on the turbocharged engine. I still don't know why would anybody mess up with freefloat + wastegated turbos instead of one quality VNT one on 1.9JTD.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Nope, these turbos are hardwired and ECU has no clue it's controlling two turbos. If both valves (I. and II.) are really controlled by the same pressure regulator as Joss wrote, it would make any tuning even harder.

Btw. GTB2056V is still capable of little bit more power.

Btw2. Turbo is one of the most strained component on the turbocharged engine. I still don't know why would anybody mess up with freefloat + wastegated turbos instead of one quality VNT one on 1.9JTD.
It;s only what I've been told so can't confirm it's one regulator. One question though. Are they free float turbo's? The turbo on the 1.9 is held by a bracket at the bottom of the precat so would it not make sense that the twin will be as well? Although the small one on top seems to be free float or am I getting this mean mixed up. As for wastegated turbos why is there a problem with them? Many manufacturers use them? :confused::)
 

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Both are straight 6 though not v:confused:.:lol:
My bad then!

As for the plumbing could we not use an original lancia downpipe as a template?
Yes, that's what I meant.

Joss said:
One question though. Are they free float turbo's? The turbo on the 1.9 is held by a bracket at the bottom of the precat so would it not make sense that the twin will be as well?
Free float as in: no boost control (wastegate or VNT)
 

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If you look into it, theres more than just parallel and sequential, different engine builders use lots of different 2 turbo set ups.
What theyre called is all just semantics, lets call em "2 turbo systems". :)

Since the 1.9JTD 16v twin turbo (or whatever you want to call it) was planned for Alfa Romeo but never happened, I would be similarly surprised if the set-up is ever applied to the 2.0 JTD.

In any case, the Fiat Group need to concentrate on applying MA to the JTDs. This would make them much more competitive at least in terms of power and CO2 outputs compared to say, BMW. At the moment, there is no comparison, the Germans hold all the trumps.
MA is currently being worked on for JTDs. The 2.0 JTD twin turbo is already used in the 9-5, the Insignia will get it soon and Fiat cant afford to be left behind when every one else is going the multi-turbo route. As the 2 turbo version exists already it would be madness NOT to MA it and only MA the single turbo. And anyway MA AND 2 turbos would be even better than MA or 2 turbos alone.

The Germans are going great, but Mitsubushi is overlooked-their 1.8 TD has 2000bar common rail, is all alloy and has variable valve timing, it makes 150PS/221LBS/FT, not bad for a 1.8. Dont think BM's diesels, however good they are (and they are) use VANOS at all . . . yet.



Like it or not 2 turbos are the way the industry is going-Fiat and BM got there first (on 4 cyl engines) with their "23D" and JTD twin turbos, VW was slow, but now has a twin turbo 2.0 (not using it on passenger cars yet but will do soon).

And 2 turbos have transformed the 6 cyl diesel market, BM started, then Merc and now VW have followed suit-all 3 are locked in a power battle and VW's recently launched 2 turbo diesel 6 pushed it to 309PS/480LBS/FT BMW upped the figs on theirs to match.

Mercedes showed an SLK with a TRIPLE turbo version of their 3 litre diesel (third turbo sat in the V I think) and an SL with a 5 litre V8 diesel back in 2005. Dunno why theyve taken so 'kin long, but theyll be launching a triple turbo 3 litre soon.

Pity they never had the balls to build the diesel SL (would have been easy as it was a production engine) and pity the diesel SLK thats just gone on sale is only a 2.2 4 cyl . . . but it DOES have 2 turbos and makes amazing torque for its size (369LBS/FT !!), you can also get this engine in the S CLass now !

The PSA/Ford/LandRover/Jag diesel engine joint venture uses 2 turbos on the V6s and the V8s. The 2.2 4 uses 2 turbos as well, in all its guises (though theyre all underpowered-the highest output is 177, which cant even match BM's 2.0 single turbo!).

the tuning boxes for the Lancia Delta TT JTD offer 230bhp & 335lbs, and that's with no other mods (DPF ect), so some good potential
Exactly, a proper remap, exhaust and I/C mod would see around 300PS/450LBS/FT. I know you can see 283 odd PS with the GTB2256v (or whatever its called) from the 2.4, but I bet its more laggy than 2 turbos.

Btw2. Turbo is one of the most strained component on the turbocharged engine. I still don't know why would anybody mess up with freefloat + wastegated turbos instead of one quality VNT one on 1.9JTD.
All the more reason to split the load it takes between 2 units, rather than have one take it all !
Maybe you should write to Fiat Powertrain, BMW, VW Goup, PSA/Ford/Jag/Landrover etc and tell em theyre wasting theyre time with 2 turbo set-ups Yan.ko ? ! :) lol
 
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