Brexit - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Way Off Topic Topics in here are quite off topic but do stay within the rules...

 8600Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Status: age is only a number ;-)
AO Gold Member
 
rgwm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Burnley-ish
County: Lancashire
Posts: 9,487
Steady on, Mr Dibnah (post #20)- you'll destroy the whole basis of these threads...........at our last general election, through the general hotch-potch that is our electoral system, the Conservatives were elected with an overall majority. Yet I'd estimate that about 90% of the posts in the "politics isn't fun any more" thread are whinging about the activity of the Government.......

Last edited by rgwm; 10-02-16 at 23:41.
rgwm is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: We got there
AO Silver Member
 
Mr_Caine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: United Kingdom
County: Surrey
Posts: 3,189

Member car:

GTV, RCZ, KTM

I'm not sure Britain has a lot to lose by leaving, we will still trade with Europe and if we have to comply with eu regulation, well we need to comply either way. We are not in the single currency. we put more money into funding the eu than we get back out. Euro is a shrinking market for us, and we still buy more from them than they from us. We can still permit immigration so if we would like our skilled polish friends to come we can permit them but they may control things more and immigrants may not be permitted to draw on the social state and may need to pay for healthcare, housing etc. I'm not worried about that sort of thing as I have no intention of working in Europe and when I go on hols I have travel insurance. Nobody is saying we couldn't rejoin if the eu ever sorts itself out and I'm not sure that will ever happen.
cgc and MalcQV like this.

Alfa Romeo GTV T-Spark
Mr_Caine is offline  
(Post Link) post #53 of 13581 Old 11-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: Make it so no. 1
AO Gold Member
 
Mr Dunamis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Lancashire
Posts: 6,241
Here is a link to an informative article on pre EEC UK and a potted history since; it's quite well put together. Although it doesn't say so in as many words it explains why the we cannot go back to the old Commonwealth markets.
BBC News - Goal difference
Mr Dunamis is offline  
Status: T-5 Days to Unicorn Paradise
AO Platinum Member
 
TheGrimJeeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: France
County: Riviera
Posts: 38,319
What an excellent little slideshow.
chrishendrix likes this.
TheGrimJeeper is offline  
Status: -
AO Gold Member
 
chrishendrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Posts: 10,781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Caine View Post
I'm not sure Britain has a lot to lose by leaving, we will still trade with Europe and if we have to comply with eu regulation, well we need to comply either way. We are not in the single currency. we put more money into funding the eu than we get back out. Euro is a shrinking market for us, and we still buy more from them than they from us. We can still permit immigration so if we would like our skilled polish friends to come we can permit them but they may control things more and immigrants may not be permitted to draw on the social state and may need to pay for healthcare, housing etc. I'm not worried about that sort of thing as I have no intention of working in Europe and when I go on hols I have travel insurance. Nobody is saying we couldn't rejoin if the eu ever sorts itself out and I'm not sure that will ever happen.
Not a lot of people know that.
chrishendrix is offline  
Status: Loving the GTA
AO Silver Member
 
alfabeat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Herefordshire
Posts: 3,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Dunamis View Post
Here is a link to an informative article on pre EEC UK and a potted history since; it's quite well put together. Although it doesn't say so in as many words it explains why the we cannot go back to the old Commonwealth markets.
BBC News - Goal difference
Very good summary.
alfabeat is offline  
Status: One foot in, one foot out!
AO Platinum Member
 
zulu ferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: wgc
County: herts
Posts: 42,278
Post using ration books in past years, I don't really think being part of a greater Europe has been such a bad thing personally, for both our security and our overall selfish prosperity as individuals?
Fitz750 likes this.
zulu ferret is offline  
Status: zzzzzzzz
AO Platinum Member
 
symon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Oxfordshire
Posts: 36,858
I think the fact that David Cameron hasn't managed any worthwhile reforn in Europe just goes to show what it has become.

An undemocratic, one size fits all waste of money, that is trying to achieve a united Europe.

The last person to try and unite Europe was a certain Mr Adolf Hitler.

I have no problem with trade agreements with Europe, as well as important stuff like intelligence sharing and counter terrorism, but we don't need them making our laws for us.
pookie, cgc, TonyGr and 1 others like this.
symon is offline  
Status: Still raining
AO Member
 
mapalfa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
County: Pembrokeshire
Posts: 316

Member car:

2008 Brera 2.4

  • My wife is Portuguese.
  • I have a load of Euros sat in the safe as the M-I-L likes to leave them behind when she comes to visit.
  • My business is very largely dependent on import-export and quite a bit of that is through the EU and, therefore, not effected by import duty etc.
  • The best tenant we've had is a Polish plumber!
  • I want to live in a country where the politicians have legal controls imposed on them. The first ever controls imposed on the UK parliament came from Europe - before that the law and constitution was simply what the party with the majority said it was and the electorate!


  • I don't want British-born scumbags to be able to claim benefits after never having contributed, so why should I want foreigners to be able to claim them?
  • Freedom of movement was supposed to be about working, not about claiming benefits. That's simply a side-effect of EU anti-discrimination legislation.
  • We've swapped a democratically elected dictatorial parliament for a parliament that's now forced to comply with the court's wishes, but can be over-ruled by the court of an unelected body in Europe.


I like being in the EU from the point of view that travel is easier and, if we weren't in, I'd never have met my wife as she'd not have been recruited to work in the UK. I actually like the idea of the Euro, but acknowledge that it won't ever work unless national economic policies are transferred to the control of a central department and the ECB.

Greece is a bad example. They should never have been allowed in the Euro-zone to begin with. Their economy was not compliant, but figures were fudged to make them look like they were. The ECB and Euro-zone are now paying the price for that fudge. The only issue about Greece that does apply to us is that we were forced to help with the initial bailout. Having said that, while we would not have been directly effected by our actual currency tanking, all European currencies would have suffered, so we'd have been hit anyway. Add to that the fact that the City of London holds the VAST majority of financial underwriting policies on European businesses and banks, then bankruptcies in the Euro-zone will hit us hard.

If we leave we can always rejoin? Think again! If the kid who keeps saying you can only play with his ball if he's allowed to win wants another game of football, you tell him to off and buy your own ball! Don't forget, we were blocked from joining the EEC when we first applied. That was a direct retaliation for not joining when we were first asked to. Even if we were allowed to rejoin, it would have to be on the basis of accepting the rules that apply at the time, so we'd probably be bound by treaties that we're opted-out of now and almost certainly be forced to join the Euro.

We pay in more than we get out? Of course we do. You can't have 28 countries stick a 1 Euro coin in a machine and get a 2 Euro coin back. We've benefited in the past from European development funding, it's our turn now to pay for other people's. We want the Syrian refugees to stay in the region, so are subsidising this to the tune of billions. When are people going to realise that the same thing applies to dragging the poorer parts of Europe up to our standards applies too. Pay now to help them and reduce their need to move here in the future. After-all, look at the number of Polish workers who've moved back as their economy has got better.

I remember a law lecturer who spent a whole class saying how the only truly democratic processes in the UK flowed from Europe. He described the UK as the world's most democratic autocracy. It's still that way to a point - if a party is voted in with a true majority they can then proceed to do anything they wish to, including changing the very basis on which the next election will be run, the makeup of the voting electorate and the checks and balances provided by the second chamber. BUT, at least at the moment we'd have the possibility of running to the ECHR to try and have a law overturned as non-compliant with EU treaties. At the same time, we have thousands of small regulations and laws that are imposed on us without anyone really noticing or caring.

In or out? I'm honest not sure. In fact, to a degree, I honestly don't care - the wife is talking seriously about opening a practice in the UAE and I'm looking into the bureaucracy involved in moving my business to one of the Dubai free trade zones. In reality that's a long-shot, but now we've made the intellectual leap of investigating the logistics of this, we know it's a possibility if we need it.



On the original question. Will the jungle move to the UK if we exit?

Of course it won't, if they do get through France they'll cut the fences in Dover and run into the darkness. The jungle is there because of the barrier created by The Channel, it's not a holding camp for people who are waiting for legal entry, it's a place for them to stay while they look for another chance to sneak in. In theory, France could refuse to stop them leaving and simply force our border controls to pick up the pieces.

In reality, though, that few miles of water makes a huge difference. They can only get here by:
a) swimming
b) getting on a ferry/boat
c) getting on a plane
d) getting through the tunnel.

Swimming isn't really a problem and anyone who does make it that way should be given citizenship and put in the Olympic team straight away.

Planes can only manage a small number of stowaways, so checks on wheel-wells for frozen immigrants can deal with that one easily.

Stowing away on lorries and in cars is an issue for both the ferries and the tunnel, but ramping-up the security checks at the ports this side would deal with the vast majority of attempts, even though it would cause chaos to begin with if we searched every vehicle entering the UK.

There are only a certain number of points someone could get onto a ferry, so making the ferry companies legally responsible for every illegal that's caught would make them improve their security if needed.

Small boats could be tracked and searched on arrival, but that would take a huge increase in border controls and customs patrols at sea.

If the French were stupid enough to allow easy access to the tunnel, then they'd deserve to have it closed. It simply can't operate if people are walking it, so if I was a French official, I'd already be planning ways of bolstering access security at the tunnel in the even of a withdrawal of UK checks on the French side.
pookie likes this.
mapalfa is offline  
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
100th_Idiot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 14,827
Garage

Member car:

Nothing Italian

The ECHR is not part of the EU apparatus. It was set up after WW2 to try to ensure nothing like that could happen again. Hence Russia also signed up to the ECHR.
cgc likes this.
100th_Idiot is offline  
Status: Still raining
AO Member
 
mapalfa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
County: Pembrokeshire
Posts: 316

Member car:

2008 Brera 2.4

Sorry, ECJ not EHCR.
mapalfa is offline  
Status: Have another Alfa
AO Gold Member
 
wayne-dear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Liverpool
County: Merseyside
Posts: 10,538
Nothing here, there or anywhere that I have seen, heard or that has been printed makes me think that Dave and his mates care one bit about what the general public wants.
If Dave gets his amazing package and if it can be in no way voted down every time it is used it is still an utterly worthless package, if he does get something worthwhile I will happily bare my hairy ass at the next Rivington meet 😀
mapalfa likes this.
wayne-dear is offline  
Status: twisted alestarter
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Club Member Number: 59
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 76,758
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgwm View Post
Steady on, Mr Dibnah (post #20)- you'll destroy the whole basis of these threads...........at our last general election, through the general hotch-potch that is our electoral system, the Conservatives were elected with an overall majority. Yet I'd estimate that about 90% of the posts in the "politics isn't fun any more" thread are whinging about the activity of the Government.......

Well, when over 63% of the population didn't vote for the party that is overseeing such trauma.......what do you expect? Submission?
chrishendrix and shiny boy like this.
steveisfrowning is offline  
Status: Dreaming
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Orpington, Kent
Posts: 1,920

Member car:

Giulietta 150MA

Quote:
Originally Posted by symon View Post
I have no problem with trade agreements with Europe, as well as important stuff like intelligence sharing and counter terrorism, but we don't need them making our laws for us.
Ah, the magic "them" word. "We," i.e. the UK, have as much say in European legislation as any other member state. As for the idea that we sacrifice some power in order to be part of a larger unit, don't we accept that principle by being in the UK, by being in England, by being in Lower Snotting or wherever?

Or should I resent "them" (Scots and Welsh) for having a say in the UK? Should I resent "them" (other English people) when it chooses a government which my constituency didn't select? Should I resent "them" (other people in Orpington) if my MP is not the one I voted for?
Sterzo is offline  
Status: T-5 Days to Unicorn Paradise
AO Platinum Member
 
TheGrimJeeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: France
County: Riviera
Posts: 38,319
Also the EU laws people moan about are not. They are UK laws.

One of the biggest issues with the EU over the last
20-30 years has been the way the UK
legislature has crafted said laws.
zulu ferret and keithyboy like this.
TheGrimJeeper is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
GettinBetter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
County: Kent
Posts: 18
I want out...during the war we stood alone....we should again. Ok, I accept there's a chance things may get harder, there again we may just set a precedent. The 'money' will want to stay in, for all their ludicrous handouts.
At least we'll be able to decide on who's side we're on in any future wars, which as the EU breaks down becomes increasingly likely. Peace I'm afraid is unnatural and we're all living under a false sense of security.....with over population comes war(s)....checkout the history books.
aggy8888 and cgc like this.
GettinBetter is offline  
Status: Still raining
AO Member
 
mapalfa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
County: Pembrokeshire
Posts: 316

Member car:

2008 Brera 2.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinBetter View Post
...Peace I'm afraid is unnatural and we're all living under a false sense of security.....with over population comes war(s)....checkout the history books.
You really should rethink your user name
Sterzo, Wobbley and GettinBetter like this.
mapalfa is offline  
Status: twisted alestarter
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
Club Member Number: 59
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 76,758
Garage
what's your historical "scale"?
steveisfrowning is offline  
Status: Still raining
AO Member
 
mapalfa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
County: Pembrokeshire
Posts: 316

Member car:

2008 Brera 2.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinBetter View Post
I want out...during the war we stood alone....we should again.
So we forget the French fighters who died so our troops could get off the beaches at Dunkirk?

We ignore the French fighters who dies saving our downed aircrews, even when the same crews may well have been bombing the towns those French people lived in?

We ignore the fact that more French people died in both WWI and WWII than British did?

We ignore the way that freedom fighters from every country in occupied Europe risked not only their own, but also their family's lives?

Why not pretend that all those foreign pilots flew, and died, in RAF planes.

And, most important of all, we ignore the simple truth that had the US not been pumping money, food, fuel and weapons into the UK we would have gone the way of the rest of Europe. Dunkirk got our troops out, but the Battle of the Atlantic kept us fighting long enough for the Americans to enter the war. Only at that point were we able to consider the invasion of Europe.




I should declare an interest here. My great uncle was shot down over Germany and some of the French underground railroad volunteers that helped him get to Spain were captured and killed.
BussoV6 and Wobbley like this.
mapalfa is offline  
Status: Petrol head
AO Platinum Member
 
cue2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 30,931
And if the French leave ?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (65.7 KB, 8 views)
steveisfrowning likes this.
cue2 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
GettinBetter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
County: Kent
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by mapalfa View Post
So we forget the French fighters who died so our troops could get off the beaches at Dunkirk?

We ignore the French fighters who dies saving our downed aircrews, even when the same crews may well have been bombing the towns those French people lived in?

We ignore the fact that more French people died in both WWI and WWII than British did?

We ignore the way that freedom fighters from every country in occupied Europe risked not only their own, but also their family's lives?

Why not pretend that all those foreign pilots flew, and died, in RAF planes.

And, most important of all, we ignore the simple truth that had the US not been pumping money, food, fuel and weapons into the UK we would have gone the way of the rest of Europe. Dunkirk got our troops out, but the Battle of the Atlantic kept us fighting long enough for the Americans to enter the war. Only at that point were we able to consider the invasion of Europe.

I should declare an interest here. My great uncle was shot down over Germany and some of the French underground railroad volunteers that helped him get to Spain were captured and killed.
No sir...You shouldn't forget, nor will I, indeed nor will anyone with a shred of respect for those people in such a dilema. I fear however that you are taking the phase too literally, whereas I was referring to the fact that Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium and France were all occupied and 'we' the british were .....well you know....it was an analogy.
GettinBetter is offline  
Status: zzzzzzzz
AO Platinum Member
 
symon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United Kingdom
County: Oxfordshire
Posts: 36,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterzo View Post
Ah, the magic "them" word. "We," i.e. the UK, have as much say in European legislation as any other member state. As for the idea that we sacrifice some power in order to be part of a larger unit, don't we accept that principle by being in the UK, by being in England, by being in Lower Snotting or wherever?

Or should I resent "them" (Scots and Welsh) for having a say in the UK? Should I resent "them" (other English people) when it chooses a government which my constituency didn't select? Should I resent "them" (other people in Orpington) if my MP is not the one I voted for?
We have a say in the legislation, but don't forget all other EU members have a say in the laws, and we are only one of 28 or so with a say.

I heard a very good analogy on the radio the other day.

If one person was alone on a bus they could go whichever direction they wanted to go. If there were 28 people on the bus then you would need to ask all of the others.

The EU is a one size fits all institution which doesn't exactly work for anyone, except perhaps Germany.

Your analogy with regard to the Welsh and Scots having a say in the UK is a bit flawed. As that is how democracy in the UK works. The EU isn't a democracy, and it isn't a club that we need to be part of.

I think also that if we stay in we will end up giving even more powers away, and might even be forced to join the Euro, as the EU fatcats will know that we cannot leave anytime soon.

If we leave it might be a bit tough at first, but I think we will emerge stronger. The EU isn't going to stop trading with us, as we buy more from them than they buy from us and they would have too much to loose.
mapalfa and cgc like this.

Giulietta 2.0JTDm (170), BMW 335i Cabrio
symon is offline  
Status: Still raining
AO Member
 
mapalfa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
County: Pembrokeshire
Posts: 316

Member car:

2008 Brera 2.4

Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinBetter View Post
No sir...You shouldn't forget, nor will I, indeed nor will anyone with a shred of respect for those people in such a dilema. I fear however that you are taking the phase too literally, whereas I was referring to the fact that Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium and France were all occupied and 'we' the british were .....well you know....it was an analogy.
No, I understood exactly where you were coming from. The problem is that the analogy doesn't work.

We were not part of occupied Europe, true, unless of course you count the Channel Islands and their legal status is a bit weird even for a discussion on Europe. But, while we were the only part of non-fascist Europe to not be invaded, we weren't the only bit to stand up to the Germans. To say that we were separate then, so why can't we be now, is ignoring that we could only stay un-invaded due to the assistance of other countries.

That's like saying the Isle of Wight stands on it's own because it's separate from the rest of Hampshire. Yes, there's a bit of water between them and the mainland, but they couldn't survive as a flourishing economy without outside help.

To push the analogy further, as we're not part of mainland Europe, we could just close our borders and refuse to let anyone in or out. Could we do that? Yes, of course we could. Would we starve to death? No. Would we remain one of the world's top economies? No way! Cuba has so much going for it, but the US block on any financial transactions with any business, government or individual who has put money into Cuba (in theory - in practice they let the vast majority slip through) has left a country that should have been the most prosperous in the region as no better than a third world country.
mapalfa is offline  
Status: T-5 Days to Unicorn Paradise
AO Platinum Member
 
TheGrimJeeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: France
County: Riviera
Posts: 38,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinBetter View Post
I want out...during the war we stood alone....we should again. Ok, I accept there's a chance things may get harder, there again we may just set a precedent. The 'money' will want to stay in, for all their ludicrous handouts.
At least we'll be able to decide on who's side we're on in any future wars, which as the EU breaks down becomes increasingly likely. Peace I'm afraid is unnatural and we're all living under a false sense of security.....with over population comes war(s)....checkout the history books.
Welcome to AO & the Way Off Topic lounge!

So, what "wars" were you thinking the UK didn't/can't get to decide on
participating in due to it being an EU member state?


Falklands?
Kosovo?
Former Yugoslavia?
Sierra Leone ?
Afghanistan?
Iraq (x2)?
Libya?
Syria?




TheGrimJeeper is offline  
Status: strongstablestrongst able
AO Platinum Member
 
keithyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Cambodia
County: Phnom Penh
Posts: 13,930

Member car:

CRV/Jaaag

But hey, who needs jobs when we're not in the EU anymore? It's a small price to pay for having control over the shape of your bananas.

German poll finds one in three firms would leave UK after Brexit | Business | The Guardian

I'm starting to find all of this a bit scary now. Hameron's Government could go down in history as the one that brought the end of the NHS and took us out of Europe. They could be studying this 5 year stint in 100 years time and asking the question "What the **** where they thinking?".
EddieGTA and TheGrimJeeper like this.

Auto Express - six issues for a quid. Offer must end soon (and then immediately start up again).

Free poor quality torch/T-cut/I luv my VW Polo sew-on badge
keithyboy is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Misc Lounges > Community Discussions > Way Off Topic

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome