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(Post Link) post #1 of 4767 Old 09-12-11 Thread Starter
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golly! this politics lark isn't as much fun as it used to be.

I'm ALMOST feeling sorry for Cameron.

Almost.

As a human being I think he's suddenly realised, this week, the true weight of what he's taken on at various levels - party, government, nationally and internationally.

All in a week when Gorgeous George found time to continue avoiding the heat that he richly deserves, miraculously preserving his own reputation by ducking the media in a professional capacity at every possible occasion switch on the Christmas lights at Knutsford.
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When did Mr Osboune become Gorgeous? In my book, that tag has always belonged to Mr Galloway and always will.
I understand that quite a crowd turned out to see him switch the lights on
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You're quite right, Mr Osborne is doing a remarkably good job of keeping his head down at the moment.

I can summon no pity or even the slightest whiff of in the very far distance for Cameron.

I have a nasty feeling he's just made a terrible mistake by leaving the UK no voice in Europe.
The only reason he had to play his hand at this juncture was to please domestic anti-euro audience. Would have been cleverer to wait and see the nature of any treaty before saying yes or no (as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Denmark and Sweden did).

If it all turns out badly real people will really suffer (still further) economic hardship, but DC will still be minted.
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The UK had to vote no on that treaty because of the financial services tax that was being proposed. I read that if the tax had gone ahead, 80% of the total raised across Europe would be paid by businesses based in the City of London, I bet 80% of it wouldn't be spent back in the UK. We contribute enough IMO, and have more than enough needy causes locally to spend tax revenue on. Its not the tax I disgaree with for the record, just where it is being spent. Financial services do need to be taxed better but this needs to be done on a worldwide basis otherwise the first country or continent to implement these taxes will just lose its financial services industry to less taxing countries.

As for losing our voice in Europe, do we really need one regarding the Eurozone crisis? All we need is the Eurozone countries to get their act together and stabilise their countries and finances. They will benefit from that and we will benefit from that. They don't need (or want, it appears) our advice on how to do this, they will manage it themselves or the Euro will fall, either way there is not much we can do about it.

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he's done the right thing. don't for a minute think that merkel & sarkozy want to overtax the financial services industry cos it's full of howibble nasty gweedy men who kill ickle puppies and aren't vewy cuddly.

they want to grab themselves massive armfuls of the COLOSSAL tax revenue that comes from the uk financial svcs industry and spread it liberally around europe, starting with themselves
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Oh dear

What is the world coming to

Sif 'almost' feeling sorry for a Tory.

I don't feel sorry for any of 'em.... just listen to Minigland's latest comments
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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
The UK had to vote no on that treaty because of the financial services tax that was being proposed. I read that if the tax had gone ahead, 80% of the total raised across Europe would be paid by businesses based in the City of London, I bet 80% of it wouldn't be spent back in the UK. We contribute enough IMO, and have more than enough needy causes locally to spend tax revenue on. Its not the tax I disgaree with for the record, just where it is being spent. Financial services do need to be taxed better but this needs to be done on a worldwide basis otherwise the first country or continent to implement these taxes will just lose its financial services industry to less taxing countries.

As for losing our voice in Europe, do we really need one regarding the Eurozone crisis? All we need is the Eurozone countries to get their act together and stabilise their countries and finances. They will benefit from that and we will benefit from that. They don't need (or want, it appears) our advice on how to do this, they will manage it themselves or the Euro will fall, either way there is not much we can do about it.
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he's done the right thing. don't for a minute think that merkel & sarkozy want to overtax the financial services industry cos it's full of howibble nasty gweedy men who kill ickle puppies and aren't vewy cuddly.

they want to grab themselves massive armfuls of the COLOSSAL tax revenue that comes from the uk financial svcs industry and spread it liberally around europe, starting with themselves
I disagree, but even still
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Would have been cleverer to wait and see the nature of any treaty before saying yes or no (as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Denmark and Sweden did).
I don't play poker, but I think he did the equivalent of throwing in the towel (sorry, boxing metaphor) before seeing all his cards.

If he wanted to be tough at this stage he needed to threaten a UK referendum on EU membership.

Pitifully poor negotiating.
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chris i think you're assuming it's a treaty we could join in future if we feel like it. maybe it was a 'now or never' deal? who knows...

i would like the idea of being able to join in future if it's to our benefit though
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chris i think you're assuming it's a treaty we could join in future if we feel like it. maybe it was a 'now or never' deal? who knows...

i would like the idea of being able to join in future if it's to our benefit though
I don't think it's a treaty we can join in the future, but we didn't have to say definitively NO just yet!
The treaty will now be negotiated by 26 nations. Not UK.

Any of the 26 nations will then need to ratify the treaty - and might choose not to.
Two of them (as I said Denmark & Sweden I think) have said they will need a mandate before ratification, thus cleverly giving themselves a continued seat at the negotiating table but with no firm commitment.

Cameron has just needlessly thrown away the last shred of influence he (we) had for nothing.
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Thrown away his influence in what? This treaty is about rectifying the Euro currency.
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Thrown away his influence in what? This treaty is about rectifying the Euro currency.
Why did he attend, Dan?
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Because the Eurozone countries want to use EU institutions to help sort out the problems with the Euro.

The way I see it, its like my mrs wanting to pay for her new boots out of the joint account..
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Well Europe hasn't been this united since 1940, and we stepped away from them then too.
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I think Cameron had little choice but to do what he did.

He was always going to have little influence due to the fact we are not in the Euro.

These proposals were going to harm our interests, how could he agree to them?

It is about time we held that referendum on the EU membership, because the way I see it the EU offers us little benefit and a lot of hassle.

However I do agree that we need to stay in the common market, and possibly keep some form of cross border co-operation and allow some migration.


The referendum will never happen though, at least whilst the Lib dems are in coalition with the Tories.

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Labour don't want a referendum now either.



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I don't want a referendum. Frankly, I would prefer to see fewer opportunities for TGBP to have a say in our nations affairs. Generally they don't understand the question or issues, even if the politicians were kind enough to frame it in a clear or relevant way.

As I grow older I'm afraid that my innate state of egalitarianism and sense of fairness keeps being undermined by stupid people who should be disenfranchised and then have their reproductive bits removed.
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I don't want a referendum. Frankly, I would prefer to see fewer opportunities for TGBP to have a say in our nations affairs. Generally they don't understand the question or issues, even if the politicians were kind enough to frame it in a clear or relevant way.

As I grow older I'm afraid that my innate state of egalitarianism and sense of fairness keeps being undermined by stupid people who should be disenfranchised and then have their reproductive bits removed.
Sad but true, most people pay more attention to soaps and 'reality' TV than they do to what's really going on in the world - which is of course how the powers that be like it.
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Back to the original point of the thread......the almost feeling sorry for Cameron.

Seems that, perhaps, Clegg isn't full of Christmas cheer.

Nick Clegg turns fire on David Cameron over Europe veto | Politics | The Observer

Clegg rages at Cameron's 'spectacular failure'' - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Clegg is experienced in European politics and apparently well connected - he probably understands how negotiations can work and why they fail.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...over-veto.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rong-on-europe

and some "balance" from a columnist I enjoy reading, though don't always agree with:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...d-6275402.html
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Back to the original point of the thread......the almost feeling sorry for Cameron.

Seems that, perhaps, Clegg isn't full of Christmas cheer.

Nick Clegg turns fire on David Cameron over Europe veto | Politics | The Observer

Clegg rages at Cameron's 'spectacular failure'' - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

Clegg is experienced in European politics and apparently well connected - he probably understands how negotiations can work and why they fail.
Yes, his quoted opinions on Cameron's performance echo some of those expressed on this forum.

Don't let it get beyond 'almost' though - he doesn't merit (or need!) our pity, if his ineptitude makes things worse for 'UK PLC' he and his like are well-cushioned enough not to feel it.
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Originally Posted by steveisfrowning View Post
I don't want a referendum. Frankly, I would prefer to see fewer opportunities for TGBP to have a say in our nations affairs. Generally they don't understand the question or issues, even if the politicians were kind enough to frame it in a clear or relevant way.

As I grow older I'm afraid that my innate state of egalitarianism and sense of fairness keeps being undermined by stupid people who should be disenfranchised and then have their reproductive bits removed.
excellent steve, we'll make a tory of you yet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveisfrowning View Post
I don't want a referendum. Frankly, I would prefer to see fewer opportunities for TGBP to have a say in our nations affairs. Generally they don't understand the question or issues, even if the politicians were kind enough to frame it in a clear or relevant way.

As I grow older I'm afraid that my innate state of egalitarianism and sense of fairness keeps being undermined by stupid people who should be disenfranchised and then have their reproductive bits removed.
SIF votes for dictatorship.
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It is about time we held that referendum on the EU membership, because the way I see it the EU offers us little benefit and a lot of hassle.

However I do agree that we need to stay in the common market, and possibly keep some form of cross border co-operation and allow some migration.
Can we have one without the other? Surely the market, i.e. trading, part is only available to EU members
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Who goes first? Clegg or Cable?
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Cameron has shown his true slimy colours, he stated the UK will 'never' join the euro. Hmmmm, must have missed the referendum on that one.

Typical Tory.
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Originally Posted by chrishendrix View Post
Sad but true, most people pay more attention to soaps and 'reality' TV than they do to what's really going on in the world - which is of course how the powers that be like it.
That's so true, and so sad.
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